How do you maximize OOTP's AI

[The Wolf]

It's a nice feature, and I personally think it ought to be set to player potential by default.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

It's actually new as of OOTP15, but as one of the typical myriad undocumented changes in each version, I think it was pretty easy to miss this, unless you knew about it ahead of time.

It's most useful in feeder leagues, as you can either ensure the top prospects get playing time, or that the best current players get time regardless of potential as in college irl.

Thanks. Any rationale behind it not being available at the ML level? Guess it might throw the AI off a bit, but it could be made available for the human-controlled team, I'd think. I guess there are other methods available to get those same results.

[ezpkns34]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's a nice feature, and I personally think it ought to be set to player potential by default.

Yeh, since it's only available in minor leagues, makes no sense for it to default to Current Ability

[JMGC]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's a nice feature, and I personally think it ought to be set to player potential by default.

I think it might be, I checked mine out due to this thread and all my minor leagues were set to player potential. I had no idea that was an option prior to this thread.

[OldFatGuy]

The way you maximize the AI is turn off EVERYTHING that give you an advantage. OOTP "veterans" won't want to hear this, but yes, this includes coaching, scouting, player morale, player personality, nearly every conceivable option that is there the AI will do worse at than you. And the more you turn on, the more of an advantage you get.

If you turn scouting on, and look at every team, you will find some with scouts that, well, just aren't the best available. To mimic the fog of scouting while having it off, use the 1 to 5 player rating scale. With coaching, the same thing. If you look at every team, you will find many teams with coaches that are less than the best (with better ones available usually). So, if you don't want the advantage of always having the best coaches, turn it off.

Player morale and player personality are also areas where the AI makes poor decisions. The AI will often make trades almost based solely on player morale and it will just not "handle" player personality as well as you. So, again, if you don't want that little bit of an edge, turn it off.
Same with options, rule V draft, etc. etc. etc. Hell, even having financials on gives you an advantage, but that is the one that I can't bring myself to turn off.

Turn trading up to Very Hard and vary between Favor Prospects and Neutral and trading becomes a lot more difficult.

All of these options are great. And in an online human versus human league, they should all be on. But EACH AND EVERY ONE of them is another area the AI does not handle as well as you. So, if you're okay with all or some or none of those advantages, use them.

I find it challenging and fun to set up my financials to where attendance is way, way more important than market size (i.e. media) and then turn off almost all of those options and the game is more challenging. I still almost always build a winner but it does make it more difficult. Winning championships is a crap shoot no matter what setting you use, as anything can and does happen in short series. The real test to how difficult the game is comes in how difficult it is to build a winner year in and year out, and even with all of those options off, it's just not that difficult.

YMMV

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's a nice feature, and I personally think it ought to be set to player potential by default.

It is in the quick start not sure about other startups.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

The way you maximize the AI is turn off EVERYTHING that give you an advantage. OOTP "veterans" won't want to hear this, but yes, this includes coaching, scouting, player morale, player personality, nearly every conceivable option that is there the AI will do worse at than you. And the more you turn on, the more of an advantage you get.



If you turn scouting on, and look at every team, you will find some with scouts that, well, just aren't the best available. To mimic the fog of scouting while having it off, use the 1 to 5 player rating scale. With coaching, the same thing. If you look at every team, you will find many teams with coaches that are less than the best (with better ones available usually). So, if you don't want the advantage of always having the best coaches, turn it off.



Player morale and player personality are also areas where the AI makes poor decisions. The AI will often make trades almost based solely on player morale and it will just not "handle" player personality as well as you. So, again, if you don't want that little bit of an edge, turn it off.

Same with options, rule V draft, etc. etc. etc. Hell, even having financials on gives you an advantage, but that is the one that I can't bring myself to turn off.



Turn trading up to Very Hard and vary between Favor Prospects and Neutral and trading becomes a lot more difficult.



All of these options are great. And in an online human versus human league, they should all be on. But EACH AND EVERY ONE of them is another area the AI does not handle as well as you. So, if you're okay with all or some or none of those advantages, use them.



I find it challenging and fun to set up my financials to where attendance is way, way more important than market size (i.e. media) and then turn off almost all of those options and the game is more challenging. I still almost always build a winner but it does make it more difficult. Winning championships is a crap shoot no matter what setting you use, as anything can and does happen in short series. The real test to how difficult the game is comes in how difficult it is to build a winner year in and year out, and even with all of those options off, it's just not that difficult.



YMMV

I have to disagree with some of this. I do almost non of the above and won my first world series in OOTP 15.

Of course I was playing GM mode before it was an official mode so I wasn't exploiting the AI in game and I always place the trade setting at the highest level to stop me from stealing from the AI. TCR was always at 200 so my first round picks weren't always a future main roster player.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

I have to disagree with some of this

Okay, can you name one of the options that the AI handles as well as the player?

[endgame]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Okay, can you name one of the options that the AI handles as well as the player?

I don't think you mentioned ratings. Do you turn them off?

[SirMichaelJordan]

Trading. Rule 5, 40 man Roster. Roster management and never seen any problems with the AI handling morale issues.

The game has so many different settings and options that it is impossible assume everyone's experience is the same as the next guy's.

Coaches never really mattered anyways and this year ratings for staff aren't really emphasized (because they seem to not even matter)

its all experience and play styles. So buying all of the best staff was not really a huge advantage since the boost were minimal.

[endgame]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Okay, can you name one of the options that the AI handles as well as the player?

That depends a lot on the intelligence of any given player, too. Like SirMichael, I've had more than my share of losing seasons. Each person has to find their own style I think. Otherwise, the game would ship with maximum competitive edge to the AI and we'd have no options. I think you said it best when you said,

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

YMMV

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

The game has so many different settings and options that it is impossible assume everyone's experience is the same as the next guy's.

I don't think anyone has the same experience, really. With all of its options, it becomes a very personal game. Stats only has some appeal for me, but given I've had enough difficulties with ratings on, haven't tested that out yet.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Okay, can you name one of the options that the AI handles as well as the player?

That depends on the player

[MKG1734]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

That depends on the player

Lets assume a very, very high level player... a player who, after constructing a team, makes the playoffs nearly every single season.

With a player of this level.... does anyone disagree with Old Fat Guy?

lukasberger, thoughts?

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Lets assume a very, very high level player... a player who, after constructing a team, makes the playoffs nearly every single season.

With a player of this level.... does anyone disagree with Old Fat Guy?

lukasberger, thoughts?

Of course the ai doesn't handle things as well as a high level player. Would anyone expect the ai in any game to be better than a highly intelligent and experienced human?

It doesn't manage that trick in any game or any computer program available to the general public, with the possible exception of using brute force calculations for games with strictly limited scenarios, and very few variables, like chess simulators. That being an approach that wouldn't work in a game like OOTP since it would require too much processing power and an impossible amount of coding.

So I guess I'm not really sure what the discussion is all about. There are plenty of things that can be done in OOTP to increase the ai's level of competence and to make things harder on a human user if you want a greater challenge, but yeah highly intelligent/experienced human/intent on exploiting any and all ai loopholes > game ai.

In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning

That being said, OOTP's ai is far above that of any other baseball game available and probably above any sports game available with the possible exception of FM. Markus also prioritizes improvements and upgrades to the ai every year. So can it get better in the future? Yup, absolutely. Is it pretty darn good now? You bet.

[MKG1734]

So I guess I'm not really sure what the discussion is all about. There are plenty of things that can be done in OOTP to increase the ai's level of competence and to make things harder on a human user if you want a greater challenge

"There are plenty of things that can be done in OOTP to increase the ai's level of competence" .... that is what the discussion is about. I'm asking what do you feel can be done...to maximize the AI? I'm not looking to create the "fog of war" against my own self by turning off this or that to make the game harder for me.... I'm asking what options should be turned off (or left on) to maximize the AI's ability to compete against the player? (keeping in mind that I am a player that attempts to NOT exploit any AI deficiencies with house rules). But, I can't stop the AI from making mistakes that the other AI teams take advantage of (40 man rosters mess ups, for example. I won't claim player that shouldnt have been waived under my own house rules....but I can't stop the AI teams from claiming the fellow AI teams waiver mistake)...

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

Lets assume a very, very high level player... a player who, after constructing a team, makes the playoffs nearly every single season.

With a player of this level.... does anyone disagree with Old Fat Guy?

lukasberger, thoughts?

Do I disagree that a human is smarter than the AI? Of course not.

Do I agree you should turn off all of the settings he suggests? No.

I get your original post and wanting a good game vs the AI. You can have that with all options on if you do what I suggested earler. IE give the AI enough room on lowest minor league roster to keep it's players. The bad releases come from not having space to keep players and then having to decide who to cut. I think ghost players help here too as the AI doesn't have to have full teams so my not have to shuffle players between levels as much (but that''s just a theory).

I'm in September in my MLB league and 5 teams have 40 men on their 40 man roster, 25 do not have a full 40 man. Most have 35-38 with ~4 at 39 and the low is 34. Again this is Sept and the AI is not filling the roster using up days of service it shouldn't. How is the AI doing badly here? Room to avoid rule 5 for players it should keep, room in low minors for drafted players that show good potential but don't have good ratings yet. Not even mentioning your minor league lineups can be based on potential instead of current ratings to get those young guys playing right away. I don't have to avoid taking "too good" players in the rule 5 in my game because they aren't in the rule 5 draft to start with. If they're not there to start with the AI isn't taking them from other teams either. What I do see is the occasional "decent" player a team may want to take a chance on get taken in rule 5, isn't that what we want? I love seeing a guy pitch for cash strapped Tampa Bay and note in his history he was a rule 5 selection taken from the Yankees and if he develops into a star of just a good SP so much the better.

From your posts you just want a good competitive game and don't see yourself fleecing the AI. IOW you try to play a realistic game of baseball. If that's the case I think you are way over thinking this whole thing. Use the roster rules Markus has put in the game. Play a realistic game of baseball and you really don't need house rules. Certainly not for the rule 5 draft or FA. Fleece the AI in trades? I'm sure you can with the right setting. Not only do I not want to but where is the fun in trying a 3 for 1, no that didn't work so add to it 4-1 and $1mil now it goes through? Sounds like a great way to spend my afternoon (sarcasm intended).

I also ask what is a "high level player"? A guy that wins for 20+ years in a row because it's easy to build a winner? How does that guy build that winner so easily? Is he playing baseball or is he playing the OOTP engine and finding loopholes he can exploit? I choose to play the simulation of real world baseball Markus has designed OOTP to be. It really doesn't take any house rules for me to do this and the game is a challenge.

Note for those that find loopholes there is nothing wrong with doing that and reporting them. As has been stated Markus works on the AI every version improving on it and closing loopholes. That is one way to help improve OOTP. Why anyone playing the game though runs through known loopholes and then complains is beyond me. Report and document it so it can be "fixed" and until then maybe have some self control?


.

[MKG1734]

I really appreciate everyone takes to provide a quality, well-thought-out response. I also like that this has struck up a conversation between long-time players. I play the game, I believe, fairly and like you do, Sweed (treating it like a baseball game as opposed to only looking to 'game' the AI). The reason I posed the question that started this thread....was to have some outside opinions on what may be a loophole that I didnt even realize I was playing with that someone else saw.

[The Wolf]

This entire discussion reads to me like a lot of the thought processes that led me to Stats Only, which to me and others is the best and most challenging way to play a good game of BASEBALL.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

I really appreciate everyone takes to provide a quality, well-thought-out response. I also like that this has struck up a conversation between long-time players. I play the game, I believe, fairly and like you do, Sweed (treating it like a baseball game as opposed to only looking to 'game' the AI). The reason I posed the question that started this thread....was to have some outside opinions on what may be a loophole that I didnt even realize I was playing with that someone else saw.

Keep this in mind. I play a couple of leagues where I maintain a dominant dynastic position. I spend the most, leverage my success and seek out the best players every year. I don't set out to game the AI but I am not claiming sainthood in any way. I can often see value in certain players that the AI doesn't and I discard them the minute they slip. I expect to win the WS every year with the best WL record if possible. I don't. Each season I play as hard and as obsessively as possible to blow away the competition; not just winning but dominating everything. I don't cheat by editing players, making illogical trades, reversing injuries, low balling contracts or replaying a WS (someone here actually suggested this).

I just missed the playoffs for the 2nd time in 7 seasons and haven't won the WS in 4 seasons. In previous versions (didn't play this league v11, 12, 13), I could win 2-4 WS in a row no problem. Since v15 for sure the AI is formidable.

My position is that if I can play with an intent to dominate and not actually dominate the AI can't be that bad or maybe I'm not that good.

[I♥Pepper]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Of course the ai doesn't handle things as well as a high level player. Would anyone expect the ai in any game to be better than a highly intelligent and experienced human?

It doesn't manage that trick in any game or any computer program available to the general public, with the possible exception of using brute force calculations for games with strictly limited scenarios, and very few variables, like chess simulators. That being an approach that wouldn't work in a game like OOTP since it would require too much processing power and an impossible amount of coding.

So I guess I'm not really sure what the discussion is all about. There are plenty of things that can be done in OOTP to increase the ai's level of competence and to make things harder on a human user if you want a greater challenge, but yeah highly intelligent/experienced human/intent on exploiting any and all ai loopholes > game ai.

In other news, the sun rose in the east this morning

That being said, OOTP's ai is far above that of any other baseball game available and probably above any sports game available with the possible exception of FM. Markus also prioritizes improvements and upgrades to the ai every year. So can it get better in the future? Yup, absolutely. Is it pretty darn good now? You bet.

So your saying the a.i. is "pretty darn good" and " it would require too much processing power and an impossible amount of coding" in the same argument? Which is it? Is it good or is it impossible to code? Baseball isn't so much more complicated than chess that it's "impossible to code". In fact, the game of baseball itself is simple. There are in fact limited scenarios.
Complications are introduced when the a.i is asked to manage the roster. Not just in game, but throughout a season. Also, not just for one team, but many teams, in many leagues. As a result, there are numerous posts in these forums pointing out weaknesses in the a.i.'s substitution patterens and roster management quirks, like trading oddities. Are these difficult to code? Yes. Is it impossible? No. If it was impossible, OOTP wouldn't exist in its current form. One thing is for sure with absolute certainty, however. Continuing with the attitude of "it's just too hard to code" will result in no further improvements and the eventual decline and death of this game. Which, in my opinion, has already begun.