What will be your first expansion teams?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Four-team divisions are for the minor leagues and football, not major league baseball. Minimum five teams in a division; ideally, six. (Seven or eight is all right, but tends to fall on the 'too large' side.)

Five or six to a division breeds wild cards, so no. Win or go home.

[The Wolf]

I was going to make an argument against the folly of another Canadian team doomed to failure, but Masson26 has pretty well nailed it. Mexico is a disastrous idea for any number of reasons - I used to work there and could write a book on why to stay away - and while I personally would like to see teams in San Juan and Havana, neither one could work economically.

[The Wolf]

Here's your Top 50 TV Markets. You guys figure it out:

Rank/Metropolitan Market Regions or Areas
1 New York
2 Los Angeles
3 Chicago
4 Philadelphia
5 Dallas-Ft. Worth
6 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose
7 Boston
8 Atlanta
9 Washington, DC
10 Houston
11 Detroit
12 Phoenix
13 Tampa-St. Petersburg
14 Seattle-Tacoma
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul
16 Miami-Ft.Lauderdale
17 Cleveland-Akron
18 Denver
19 Orlando-Daytona Beach-Melbourne
20 Sacramento-Stockton-Modesto
21 St. Louis
22 Portland, OR
23 Pittsburgh
24 Charlotte, NC
25 Indianapolis
26 Baltimore
27 Raleigh-Durham
28 San Diego
29 Nashville
30 Hartford-New Haven
31 Kansas City
32 Columbus, OH
33 Salt Lake City
34 Cincinnati
35 Milwaukee
36 Greenville-Spartanburg-Asheville-Anderson
37 San Antonio
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce
39 Grand Rapids-Kalamazoo-Battle Creek
40 Birmingham
41 Harrisburg-Lancaster-Lebanon-York
42 Las Vegas
43 Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News
44 Albuquerque-Santa Fe
45 Oklahoma City
46 Greensboro-High Point-Winston-Salem
47 Jacksonville, FL
48 Memphis
49 Austin
50 Louisville

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by kungfupandacam

Wait, the Pirates only had 30.845 people per game. Gosh, I thought they were only a little below MLB average.

Damned missing comma!

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Five or six to a division breeds wild cards, so no. Win or go home.

Any damned fool team can win a puny four-team division. Win first out of six (or more) teams, and now you've earned some bragging rights.

[Masson26]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That's like a lot of clubs—there are plenty of econometric studies which have looked at the connection between on-the-field performance and attendance, and the correlation is strong.

Recall also that in 2001 MLB began to openly talk about contraction—with the Expos named as one of the two clubs targetted for elimination. That's not exactly going to draw fans to the ballpark.

Will it be any worse than the Marlins or Rays?

Attendance increases often lag a year. That is, while performance in the current season will often result in an attendance boost, it is also the performance the season prior which also affects attendance. (Again, see the various studies that have been done on the subject. There are plenty of MLB examples of a club winning during a season, but the attendance not really going up substantially until the next season.)

Please provide citations that your view of those parks as "dumps" was widely shared by others.

New stadiums were about revenue generation. As in the newer parks were much better at generating revenue than the parks they replaced.

The Pirates, incidentally, have seen their attendance go from 1.6 million in 2010 (when the club was 57-105) to a hair under 2.5 million in 2015. That's an average of 30.845 per game—an entirely healthy figure (the MLB average was 30,517). The Twins drew over 3 million in 2010 and 2011; it dipped to 2.2 million last year, the fifth consecutive season the club has not been competitive.

Thats because the Pirates have finally started winning, though they are however still considered to be a small market team, but you can bet as soon as the start losing again, they will have a massive drop in attendance, say the Phillies for example where winning like the Pirates, they would end up with some of the best attendance in the league.

And yes there are alot of fair weather teams everywhere but whats the point of giving a brand new team, destined to suck for a few years at least in a city that you know will not support a poor team, when there are already teams trying to get out of the same situation.

And as far as being worse then Tampa and Miami, history says its very possible, and even if they where on equal ground with these two teams, why would you put a team in a place to set them up to have the same struggles?

As far as the stadiums being dumps. Go look at them, take a tour through them, they are nostalgic stadiums but if you look at them strictly as buildings and say trying to put said expansion teams in those building, there's no way in hell they would get approved. They are all falling apart and take enormous amount of renovations on a yearly basis to keep operational. Just proves that real fans will support a team they love regardless of the stadium they play in, and love that stadium because thats where THERE TEAM plays, not because its new and shinny.

[jasonzimmie]

Originally Posted by '94 EXPOS

If you leave league evolution on it will expand automatically....both historical games and new games.


I find the OOTP expansion rules to work quite well but they are not authentic....you can make customize it to some extent though


Choosing to expand manually is also very user friendly now as well

so if I were to start a historical dynasty in 1871 if I real minor leaues and expansion then I leave league evolution on? what exactly does league evolution do?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Any damned fool team can win a puny four-team division.

Not true. And if a weak team does so, they get wiped out in the first division series, as they should. Death to wild cards!

[oldcatcher]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Not true. And if a weak team does so, they get wiped out in the first division series, as they should. Death to wild cards!

wildcards should stay in the NFL and March Madness...I remember Atlanta winning the division with Hank Aaron, or am I dreaming?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I was going to make an argument against the folly of another Canadian team doomed to failure, but Masson26 has pretty well nailed it.

Well, other than the various holes I punched into some of his arguments, sure.

Originally Posted by Masson26

Thats because the Pirates have finally started winning, though they are however still considered to be a small market team, but you can bet as soon as the start losing again, they will have a massive drop in attendance, say the Phillies for example where winning like the Pirates, they would end up with some of the best attendance in the league.

None of which obviates my point: attendance is connected to on-the-field performance.

Note too that the Pirates have one of the smallest parks in terms of seating capacity in the majors—just 38,362.* That means, assuming a sellout every home game, the most it could draw in a season is just over 3.1 million. These days attendance is not the primary driver of baseball economics. League-wide, according to Forbes' estimates for the 2014 season, only 30.5% of MLB operating revenue was from ticket sales.

*New ballparks built over the last twenty years have lower seating capacity compared to the parks they replaced—this artificially restricts supply, hence the same level of demand boosts ticket prices. That's one of the reasons the newer parks are better revenue generators. There's also the increase in club seats and luxury suites.

Originally Posted by Masson26

And yes there are alot of fair weather teams everywhere but whats the point of giving a brand new team, destined to suck for a few years at least in a city that you know will not support a poor team, when there are already teams trying to get out of the same situation.

Define "support". You are making the mistake of assuming that attendance is the primary driver of revenue these days. It isn't.

Originally Posted by Masson26

And as far as being worse then Tampa and Miami, history says its very possible, and even if they where on equal ground with these two teams, why would you put a team in a place to set them up to have the same struggles?

So, contraction it is, then?

Originally Posted by Masson26

As far as the stadiums being dumps. Go look at them, take a tour through them, they are nostalgic stadiums but if you look at them strictly as buildings and say trying to put said expansion teams in those building, there's no way in hell they would get approved. They are all falling apart and take enormous amount of renovations on a yearly basis to keep operational. Just proves that real fans will support a team they love regardless of the stadium they play in, and love that stadium because thats where THERE TEAM plays, not because its new and shinny.

Lots of assertion. No citations. I'll stick to evidence over anecdote, thanks.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Not true. And if a weak team does so, they get wiped out in the first division series, as they should. Death to wild cards!

So what? This is what constitutes the entirety of your argument? Colour me unimpressed.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

So what? This is what constitutes the entirety of your argument? Colour me unimpressed.

Did you miss the first part? About how having larger divisions breed wild cards, the root of a great deal of evil?

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Well, other than the various holes I punched into some of his arguments, sure.

In my opinion he won the argument.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Not true. And if a weak team does so, they get wiped out in the first division series, as they should. Death to wild cards!

Not true. The 2006 Cardinals called and they're willing to give their World Series trophy back because after all they should've gotten wiped out in the first division series.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Did you miss the first part? About how having larger divisions breed wild cards, the root of a great deal of evil?

You appear to rest the entirety of your argument on an emotional foundation. Wild cards as "the root of a great evil" is not a logical, evidence-based argument. When you decide to bring facts and evidence into the discussion, I'm prepared to consider it.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

In my opinion he won the argument.

If one ignores presented evidence, sure, I suppose.

[The Wolf]

It wasn't a trial. His explanations made more sense than yours did to me.

[Orioles1966]

I would like too see better options with the schedule editor(schedule neutral site games) so if I decide too have expansion regional teams they can play their home games in 4 or 5 different cities(like the old ABA used too do;Carolina Cougars,Virginia Squires,Floridians).

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Five or six to a division breeds wild cards, so no. Win or go home.

Are you sure about that? It worked fine from 1969-1993.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

Are you sure about that? It worked fine from 1969-1993.

You get three really good teams jammed up in a large division and people start like LGO start screaming for wildcards.

['94 EXPOS]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You get three really good teams jammed up in a large division and people start like LGO start screaming for wildcards.

I have a run 32-34 team leagues since OOTP 15. I have tried a variety of play-off formats.

The worst for 'competitive balance' was when I had four four team divisions in each league with the division winner of each making the play-offs. It was not uncommon for a sub.500 team to make it in.

I changed to two eight team divisions in each league with the top two teams in each division making it to the divisionals. Rarely, does an 'undeserving' team make it in.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It wasn't a trial. His explanations made more sense than yours did to me.

Basing an opinion on nothing more than emotionalism doesn't seem like much of a foundation.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You get three really good teams jammed up in a large division and people start like LGO start screaming for wildcards.

I have no opinion on the wild card one way or the other. It makes little difference to me. (I feel the same about interleague play.)

As I've stated several times, for me the ideal baseball setup is a 12-team league divided into two 6-team divisions. That provides a good mix of divisional and interdivisional opponents, while providing a sufficient number of challengers for the division titles, and the scheduling is a snap. But MLB isn't going back to 24 teams, so my ideal MLB world is relegated to history.