Finally, the Cleveland Indians are done with Chief Wahoo

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by RchW

Native people in North America are not Indians. They do not refer to themselves by that name. Why is it so difficult to understand? Now if we were talking about a cricket team in Delhi it might be different but I'd never assume it was ok.

I agree with you. But, like it or not, Native Americans are often referred to as Indians, and I think you know that. But no Columbus, we're not in India.

[Déjà Bru]

Braves - not bad
Indians - not bad
Redskins - not good
Chief Wahoo - the worst

Team nicknames and logos referring to Native Americans in a dignified, respectable manner are fine, in my opinion. Also in my opinion, Native Americans should be proud of such representation.

But to refer to the color of their skin as supposedly red and to depict them in the manner of Chief Wahoo is disrespectful and indefensible. How in the heck the Cleveland Indians were allowed - and allowed themselves - to take the field with that disgraceful image on their uniforms for so long is mind boggling.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

But they are. A school here in NJ was pressured to rid themselves of the name Warriors. They are now the Patriots.

2 of the 3 of the High schools in Grundy County, IL still have Indian themed names and logos.
Minooka Indians Primary and secondary logos. i dont have a problem with the 2nd one. Not a fan of the name though.


Morris Redskins

[BaseballMan]

Doesn't Indiana mean land of the Indians?
That seems a bit ironic.
Kinda like kicking your neighbor out of his house but keeping his name on the mailbox.

[FSUKegman]

Personally I feel that if this is the biggest thing that someone has to complain about then life isn't all that bad and they need to get a job. Indians is NOT a derogatory word. Are we going to change the name of "insert name here" just because someone gets their panties in a wad and finds it offensive. We truly have become a nation of thin skinned cry babies.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by FSUKegman

Personally I feel that if this is the biggest thing that someone has to complain about then life isn't all that bad and they need to get a job. Indians is NOT a derogatory word. Are we going to change the name of "insert name here" just because someone gets their panties in a wad and finds it offensive. We truly have become a nation of thin skinned cry babies.

Hmm.. interesting. I find when someone usually says this they are often in the middle complaining about something else. Like complaining about players kneeling then calling people thin skin. I think a wise person understands we all have different triggers and things that are meaningful to us. We get along better in the world when we respect differences and are considerate of each other.

[FSUKegman]

Interesting....just tell me the last time that I complained about players not kneeling since you know me so well. I'm waiting. I do understand that everyone has different triggers but a wise person also knows that you have to draw the line somewhere and can't bow down to every single person that complains.

[Cobra Mgr]

Daily Show last night

Daily Show -NFL Washington

[BBGiovanni]

Originally Posted by msupoke

The fan letter referenced in that story did not include the Cleveland nickname. Maybe some Native Americans object to the nickname, but that link did not show that. It stated that Howarth did not use it and a human rights group opposes it and protests happen before every season, but none of that shows that the nickname is a racial slur. I bet that if the logo and images were not present, the nickname would not be an issue.

I had a "Native American Law" class with Ray Halbritter, (a) leader of the Oneidas and in recent years a very outspoken critic of the Washington Snyders. He told us point blank that neither he nor his family/friends cared about the term "Indian" and in fact used it neutrally to refer to themselves. That wasn't in the context of mascots, and he might think teams should pay license fees or something, but since then I've never doubted what he said, even if I use "native American" to avoid getting lectured by other palefaces.

Way too many of these discussions about Wahoo immediately turn to "there's nothing wrong with calling them Indians" when no one (maybe the protestors, I dunno) is even talking about that. They retired (mostly) an anachronistic logo. It's fine. They existed for a half-century or so without it. Now let's get rid of the obnoxious RECORDED "war chant" in ATL, which is hated by plenty of non-Indians too.

[The Game]

Originally Posted by knightdreamer2k

Hmm.. interesting. I find when someone usually says this they are often in the middle complaining about something else. Like complaining about players kneeling then calling people thin skin. I think a wise person understands we all have different triggers and things that are meaningful to us. We get along better in the world when we respect differences and are considerate of each other.

I complained about players kneeling and i think Indians & Redskins are disrespectful, now what?

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by FSUKegman

Interesting....just tell me the last time that I complained about players not kneeling since you know me so well. I'm waiting. I do understand that everyone has different triggers but a wise person also knows that you have to draw the line somewhere and can't bow down to every single person that complains.

Of course I don't know you. You missed my point. I'm sure you have something you complain about that I view as "small potatoes".
In fact you complaining about thin skinned people would be my opinion pointless.

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by The Game

I complained about players kneeling and i think Indians & Redskins are disrespectful, now what?

Nothing. My point I was making was to that other person saying thin skinned people, when I have heard plenty of people say that then complain about something that could be interpreted as thin skinned.

[ThatSeventiesGuy]

All politics aside, I could never understand why Indians fans were so attached to the damned thing. I mean, it's not exactly part of a winning tradition.

I could maybe see it if they'd won twelve championships with that as their logo, but come on. None since 1948. At this point, I'd think they'd figure it was part of a curse, and be glad to get rid of it.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy

All politics aside, I could never understand why Indians fans were so attached to the damned thing. I mean, it's not exactly part of a winning tradition.

My 2 cents: People in the world today have such black/white thinking. Something is either absolutely good or absolutely evil. Doesn't matter what it is. Sports, family, religion, politics, country, race, gender, language etc. They pick a side & refuse to listen to any justified criticism of their side. You don't agree with them, you must be a hater. The nickname issue is just a small example of what is largely plaguing mankind today.

[frangipard]

Originally Posted by BBGiovanni

I had a "Native American Law" class with Ray Halbritter, (a) leader of the Oneidas and in recent years a very outspoken critic of the Washington Snyders. He told us point blank that neither he nor his family/friends cared about the term "Indian" and in fact used it neutrally to refer to themselves. That wasn't in the context of mascots, and he might think teams should pay license fees or something, but since then I've never doubted what he said, even if I use "native American" to avoid getting lectured by other palefaces.

This. Polls have continually shown that few if any Indians mind being called that; the idea that they should be is pure projection from white folks.

[ojoe]

Originally Posted by FSUKegman

Personally I feel that if this is the biggest thing that someone has to complain about then life isn't all that bad and they need to get a job. Indians is NOT a derogatory word. Are we going to change the name of "insert name here" just because someone gets their panties in a wad and finds it offensive. We truly have become a nation of thin skinned cry babies.

The question I have about this line of thinking is, why is it that the people wanting the name changed are crybabies, but the people opposing the name change aren't? Why is it thin-skinned to complain about the logo, but not thin-skinned to complain about the changing of the logo?

It either matters or doesn't. It's not fair to care enough to complain about it, while also telling others that they shouldn't care enough to complain about it.

If it matters, state your case - but understand that people might legitimately care as much (or more) on the other side, and they're not being crybabies. If it doesn't matter, then let them change it and go about your day without further crying.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by frangipard

This. Polls have continually shown that few if any Indians mind being called that; the idea that they should be is pure projection from white folks.

Show the poll. I'd bet it's flawed.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by The Game

2 of the 3 of the High schools in Grundy County, IL still have Indian themed names and logos.
Minooka Indians Primary and secondary logos. i dont have a problem with the 2nd one. Not a fan of the name though.


Morris Redskins

What is the problem with the primary logo?

[PotatoPeeler]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Of course. I always thought if the Redskins did change their name that a perfect switch would be Warriors. Then they could go back to their old helmets that used the spear instead of that ugly helmet they have now. But no, apparently Warriors is no good either.

Apparently anything referencing Indians is off limits. I guess we need to stick to animals only with the occasional symbol like a star. Anything else is offensive.

Rather than change their name, I think the Redskins should just change their logo to that of a potato.

[r0nster]

the issue at hand is the Cleveland Indians current ownership failed to remember how the logo came to be and was created by a 17 year old in a contest and it had NOTHING to do with racism. It wasn't till the late 70s into the 80s did the liberals decide to take it up as a winning issue for their cause as we see today. I am plainly fed up with people making up stories and twisting any symbolism to their own ends and people buying into the false narrative.