Markus Heinsohn?

[thefatcat]

Originally Posted by wildcatscanread

What are people playing instead?

Hanging in there with FOF8 or quitting basically, if they quit i don't know if they play anything else to be honest.

[wildcatscanread]

Originally Posted by thefatcat

Hanging in there with FOF8 or quitting basically, if they quit i don't know if they play anything else to be honest.

I definitely would like your insight in the thread I started about the other products

[thefatcat]

Originally Posted by wildcatscanread

I definitely would like your insight in the thread I started about the other products

I've only played two of them so i don't think i'd be the right person to make judgement i am afraid. FOF is way better than DDS i will say that. But FOF 8 has some major flaws.

[wildcatscanread]

Originally Posted by thefatcat

I've only played two of them so i don't think i'd be the right person to make judgement i am afraid. FOF is way better than DDS i will say that. But FOF 8 has some major flaws.

I’d love to hear why. Can you elaborate here or in that thread?

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by thefatcat

Hanging in there with FOF8 or quitting basically, if they quit i don't know if they play anything else to be honest.

I’ve never played in a league, but I quit on FOF8 early.

But I still love FOF7 - other than not being able to sim multiple seasons at the start, I think it’s a much better game than 8

[redfox000]

Originally Posted by ThePelvicWoo

The fact that Gary from Wolverine Studios has had more communication with us on this forum over the last several months than anybody involved with the FOF project is pretty sad.

Jim, nor anybody from OOTP owe us anything with regards to updates. However, as a consumer I do not owe them complete loyalty either. I've given DDS a try over the last few days and am having fun with it so far. Going to try out a multiplayer league, and if it plays well in that setting FOF is no longer a day 1 buy for me

Gary has to, privately, be grinning at this. It certainly feels like a win from him while also dealing some damage to the opponent.

[wildcatscanread]

Originally Posted by AlexB

I’ve never played in a league, but I quit on FOF8 early.

But I still love FOF7 - other than not being able to sim multiple seasons at the start, I think it’s a much better game than 8

What makes the earlier iteration better?

[ThePelvicWoo]

Originally Posted by redfox000

Gary has to, privately, be grinning at this. It certainly feels like a win from him while also dealing some damage to the opponent.

I've really never seen anything quite like this to be honest. You'd think that someone from OOTP would have politely asked him to stop advertising his product over here by now.

Makes me feel that OOTP is pretty apathetic about this whole project. Probably not fair to them to say this, but perception is reality

[thefatcat]

Originally Posted by wildcatscanread

What makes the earlier iteration better?

Defense is not good in FOF8, WRs are over powered and probably always have been.

[wildcatscanread]

Originally Posted by thefatcat

Defense is not good in FOF8, WRs are over powered and probably always have been.

Thanks! Are you saying the defense is ineffective or the defense play calls are inadequate or something else? Wide receivers are too good, too easy to make catches, gain yardage?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by ThePelvicWoo

I've really never seen anything quite like this to be honest. You'd think that someone from OOTP would have politely asked him to stop advertising his product over here by now.

Makes me feel that OOTP is pretty apathetic about this whole project. Probably not fair to them to say this, but perception is reality

I'd like to clear up a few things...

First off I'm not over here starting threads advertising for our games - others have started the threads and I'm just answering questions that others have. If someone asked about OOTP on our forums I'd have no issue with Markus answering (like he would even spend the time checking our forums with as successful as OOTP is).

Second from time to time over the years I have emailed Markus and asked him questions, asked him for guidance and asked for whatever he could do to help raise our profile. From time to time OOTP has retweeted some of our stuff and we've done the same on Twitter. I have never had a negative interaction with him - if he doesn't want me to post on his forum then I would respect that but we've never had anything but a friendly relationship.

Third I wish nothing but the best for Jim, Markus and everyone else at OOTP. I don't root for FOF to fail - I've had the pleasure of meeting Jim in person and we too have talked over the years. I know that when they put out FOF it will be a great game because Jim has always made great games and OOTP puts out top notch stuff. We don't have any notions of outdoing OOTP at anything - in fact the higher they raise their profile maybe its more people that can find out that other companies like us exist.

I tried to point this out in that other thread - there are individuals here. Real people who I know or have spoken with over the years who work very hard to produce games so I root for nothing but the best for them.

[tward13]

Classy post Gary. There's room for all of you on the market

[RchW]

Well said Gary. You and Markus are both class acts.

[Nature Boy]

Originally Posted by wildcatscanread

Thanks! Are you saying the defense is ineffective or the defense play calls are inadequate or something else?

Yes, all of this.

Defense is a pathetic effort. I know that sounds harsh, but it is true. I mean you can differentiate between 2nd and 1-2, 3-5, 6-9, 10-12 and 13+ on Offense. On Defense you get to counter with "Normal". Not that defensive play calls do much of anything anyway.

The whole engine needs sorting. Wide Receivers are gods in FOF, about time we had a more realistic game balance.

Blitzing is uncontrollable, double coverage options limited, all pass offenses a viable option.

The draft is very good. The off season in general is good, very good. The in season experience is poor for someone who has been playing a while and has a good understanding of the engine.

FOF7 offered more control. You were in the driver's seat rather than the passenger seat during the season.

[moore4807]

Nature Boy hit the FOF weakness for me perfectly - I'm more of a defensive side of the ball player and that's where FOF was a let down for me... Loved the business side and negotiating contracts (same as OOTP) but the options to decide how/who blitzed, covered or double covered, or even having 8 DB's in the game - was not close to realistic... Jim DID try to make these things happen, no criticism of him from me, but its one area where I think OOTP can only enhance the FOF franchise.

[wildcatscanread]

Originally Posted by Nature Boy

Yes, all of this.

Defense is a pathetic effort. I know that sounds harsh, but it is true. I mean you can differentiate between 2nd and 1-2, 3-5, 6-9, 10-12 and 13+ on Offense. On Defense you get to counter with "Normal". Not that defensive play calls do much of anything anyway.

The whole engine needs sorting. Wide Receivers are gods in FOF, about time we had a more realistic game balance.

Blitzing is uncontrollable, double coverage options limited, all pass offenses a viable option.

The draft is very good. The off season in general is good, very good. The in season experience is poor for someone who has been playing a while and has a good understanding of the engine.

FOF7 offered more control. You were in the driver's seat rather than the passenger seat during the season.

Did Jim explain the change from FOF 7 to FOF 8? One wonders if there would be an extension of FOF 8 in the next version or a retraction.

I think the FOF defensive approach sounds very similar to Second and Ten. That game does not have GM functionality though (no trades, salary cap management etc).

It seems like no game has everything perfect in one package. Second and Ten and Action are considered to be very statistically sound and FOF and some other games seem to be way more sophisticated in offseason options.

[jeffw3000]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I'd like to clear up a few things...

First off I'm not over here starting threads advertising for our games - others have started the threads and I'm just answering questions that others have. If someone asked about OOTP on our forums I'd have no issue with Markus answering (like he would even spend the time checking our forums with as successful as OOTP is).

Second from time to time over the years I have emailed Markus and asked him questions, asked him for guidance and asked for whatever he could do to help raise our profile. From time to time OOTP has retweeted some of our stuff and we've done the same on Twitter. I have never had a negative interaction with him - if he doesn't want me to post on his forum then I would respect that but we've never had anything but a friendly relationship.

Third I wish nothing but the best for Jim, Markus and everyone else at OOTP. I don't root for FOF to fail - I've had the pleasure of meeting Jim in person and we too have talked over the years. I know that when they put out FOF it will be a great game because Jim has always made great games and OOTP puts out top notch stuff. We don't have any notions of outdoing OOTP at anything - in fact the higher they raise their profile maybe its more people that can find out that other companies like us exist.

I tried to point this out in that other thread - there are individuals here. Real people who I know or have spoken with over the years who work very hard to produce games so I root for nothing but the best for them.

As stated by others I commend Gary for his statements and I have a new found respect for Wolverine. This is the type of attitude I always got the impression Markus had, and it is refreshing to hear this from someone else. This type of attitude will help the industry to grow which is good for all involved.

[Tramel]

The way gary has conducted himself when attacked or has bad things said about his game and how helpful he is whether on this forum or wolverines,has gotten me to buy probb an collegefb,,,he doesnt need to advertise here,showing me the type of person he is the best advertisement��

[ZootMurph]

Originally Posted by Gary Gorski

I'd like to clear up a few things...

First off I'm not over here starting threads advertising for our games - others have started the threads and I'm just answering questions that others have. If someone asked about OOTP on our forums I'd have no issue with Markus answering (like he would even spend the time checking our forums with as successful as OOTP is).

Second from time to time over the years I have emailed Markus and asked him questions, asked him for guidance and asked for whatever he could do to help raise our profile. From time to time OOTP has retweeted some of our stuff and we've done the same on Twitter. I have never had a negative interaction with him - if he doesn't want me to post on his forum then I would respect that but we've never had anything but a friendly relationship.

Third I wish nothing but the best for Jim, Markus and everyone else at OOTP. I don't root for FOF to fail - I've had the pleasure of meeting Jim in person and we too have talked over the years. I know that when they put out FOF it will be a great game because Jim has always made great games and OOTP puts out top notch stuff. We don't have any notions of outdoing OOTP at anything - in fact the higher they raise their profile maybe its more people that can find out that other companies like us exist.

I tried to point this out in that other thread - there are individuals here. Real people who I know or have spoken with over the years who work very hard to produce games so I root for nothing but the best for them.

One thing you can learn from all this here is that you shouldn't put out a game until it's ready. You guys at Wolverine try too hard to keep pushing out games, to the point ALL the games you put out are thin and weak. You want a big time game, FOCUS a LOT more on each individual game, and don't put it out until it's READY.

Another thing is do not just ignore the game once you've put out the next version of another game.

Finally, customer service is extremely weak. First, your football offering really has the weakest manual I've ever seen. It's been around long enough now that it should be fleshed out much better... but you don't put enough time and effort into each game, you just push one out and go to the next. Second, once your developers hear things they don't like about their games, even when made in good conscience trying to improve the game, the developers ignore them... again, showing poor customer service. Lastly, games are put out, beta tested for a few weeks, then that's all. Effort into the game disappears. That's not the proper development cycle for a game. Once again, terrible customer service based on trying to push too many games out.

If you want to actually make money, make ONE good game, build an audience, then make a second GOOD game... etc. You've got a bunch of subpar games taking too much time and effort and you'll never get big because you aren't putting out anything good enough to be big. Ideas are there, but ideas don't get customers, products do.

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by ZootMurph

One thing you can learn from all this here is that you shouldn't put out a game until it's ready. You guys at Wolverine try too hard to keep pushing out games, to the point ALL the games you put out are thin and weak. You want a big time game, FOCUS a LOT more on each individual game, and don't put it out until it's READY.

Another thing is do not just ignore the game once you've put out the next version of another game.

Finally, customer service is extremely weak. First, your football offering really has the weakest manual I've ever seen. It's been around long enough now that it should be fleshed out much better... but you don't put enough time and effort into each game, you just push one out and go to the next. Second, once your developers hear things they don't like about their games, even when made in good conscience trying to improve the game, the developers ignore them... again, showing poor customer service. Lastly, games are put out, beta tested for a few weeks, then that's all. Effort into the game disappears. That's not the proper development cycle for a game. Once again, terrible customer service based on trying to push too many games out.

If you want to actually make money, make ONE good game, build an audience, then make a second GOOD game... etc. You've got a bunch of subpar games taking too much time and effort and you'll never get big because you aren't putting out anything good enough to be big. Ideas are there, but ideas don't get customers, products do.

There's really no reason to respond to most of this but I will respond that our customer service is anything but poor or weak.

Just because our developers (myself included) choose to not implement a suggestion or respond to one or maybe even don't see it does not make poor customer service. We don't have time to purposely ignore anyone, even the people who make awful suggestions and our development cycle does not work how you feel it should and no, changing that is not going to make us big.

Our company is growing just fine because people feel we are responsive and put out a product that is constantly improving from version to version across the board. Some people buy each new version, some wait until they feel there are enough improvements across multiple versions...that's all fine by me. We're going to keep doing what we're doing and improving with the resources we have to stay in business and stay in the game.

I'm sorry you don't agree, and that's ok. Thanks for trying our games and I hope you find other products that you feel more satisfied with.