Pirates Play Moneyball 1951 - ????

[Brad K]

Who Are The Real Pirates

Oct 16, 1965
The Pittsburgh Press
Pittsburgh PA

The Pirate Brass has a mystery to deal with this off season. How did a team that lost three stars to free agency tie for first in mid June, bolster itself for a pennant run with trades, and then collapse to a fifth place finish? What happens in the off season depends largely on determining who are the real Pirates.

The June moves didn't pay off as intended but can't be called bad moves. Second baseman Dick McAuliffe who led all AL second basemen in All Star Game votes before the trade slumped badly with Pittsburgh. So did his trade counterpart Leo Cardenas in Detroit. Jim Palmer was supposed to bolster the starting pitching. Instead he ended up a replacement for Mike Cuellar who suffered a season ending injury.

This off season the choices rest mostly with the Pirates. Among the front line players only starting pitcher Joe Gibbon is eligible for free agency. Other free agents include fan favorite Frank Thomas and utility player Lee Walls. Thomas made the most of limited playing time hitting .359 in 92 at bats. Walls got most of his playing time in AAA where he hit .280 and slugged .523.

On paper the Pirates have a decent team with some young players who should get better. Perhaps the best thing they could do during the off season is sign a popular player who puts fans in the stands.

[luckymann]

Nooooooooo!!!!!!

Bad luck bud, I was pulling' for ya! Bring on '66.

[Brad K]

Its been interesting, that's for sure! I need to calculate average payroll rank.

[Brad K]

Trivia

In a game in 1952 Bob Elliott was 6 for 6 with 2 HRs and 10 RBI. That single game production is 6% of his career HRs (34) and 6% of his career RBI (154).

There have been four pitching Triple Crowns, accomplished by Vic Raschi, Don Drysdale, Mickey Lolich, and Sandy Koufax. Mickey Mantle has the only batting Triple Crown.

There have been 21 no hitters. The Pirates were involved in eight, seven for and one against. The two perfect games were thrown by Bob Friend and Bob Gibson.

Joe Torre has the highest season batting average at .373 but he is only #23 on the career list at .302. Willie Mays leads in career batting average at .322.

Mickey Mantle has the season record for HRs with 52. Roger Maris is tied for 15th with 43.

Casey Stengel has the highest managers winning percentage at .659. He managed two years, won two World Series, and retired. Chuck Dressen has the most wins with 1369 and a .584 winning percentage.

The AL leads in World Series wins 10 - 5. The Yankees have the most World Series wins with 6.

The California Angels became the first expansion team to have a winning record (1964) the first to win a pennant (1965) and the first to win a World Series (1965).

Hank Aaron is playing for the Yankees. Mickey Mantle is playing for the Braves.

[Brad K]

Oh, and no one has been elected to the Hall of Fame.

[Brad K]

There is a discussion in the general forum about trade ethics, specifically about as a human accepting what appear to be overly advantageous trades with an AI GM. I've commented about some trades in this thread that might be considered taking advantage of AI. its a matter of the overall context though. Here's my response.

-----

In my current historical game I have been offered several players whose real life performance was better than indicated potential. These were players who although not always young had mostly minor league playing time.

With my settings - 3 year recalc with TCR and dev on - they wouldn't always perform in the game as in real life. However in the context of my other game settings I think its fair for me to occasionally accept an offered player who might turn out to be a super deal.

I started in 1951 with free agency on, trading on hardest setting, self imposed payroll restrictions to well under the league half way point, and historical rookies so I can't use knowledge of real life to game the draft. If I couldn't get an occasional deal in trade, I'd allow myself a little more money.

---------

Thread is here

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=330102

[Brad K]

Pre Season 1966

Nothing happened off season that would make a good newspaper article.

The owner cut the budget due to low ticket sales last year and projected for this year. I'm OK on free agent money but ran out of money for extensions.

Dick McAuliffe is grumpy about an extension and wants more money/years than I think he's worth. Making him an offer is when I learned I was out of extension money.

Jim Northrup popped up in Spring Training as a passable CF so I salary dumped CF Lenny Green.

I learned later that as money comes in you can get the extension money above zero.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

There is a discussion in the general forum about trade ethics, specifically about as a human accepting what appear to be overly advantageous trades with an AI GM. I've commented about some trades in this thread that might be considered taking advantage of AI. its a matter of the overall context though. Here's my response.

-----

In my current historical game I have been offered several players whose real life performance was better than indicated potential. These were players who although not always young had mostly minor league playing time.

With my settings - 3 year recalc with TCR and dev on - they wouldn't always perform in the game as in real life. However in the context of my other game settings I think its fair for me to occasionally accept an offered player who might turn out to be a super deal.

I started in 1951 with free agency on, trading on hardest setting, self imposed payroll restrictions to well under the league half way point, and historical rookies so I can't use knowledge of real life to game the draft. If I couldn't get an occasional deal in trade, I'd allow myself a little more money.

---------

Thread is here

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=330102

Yeah, this is one element of the game that fascinates me and is why I always set TCR above 100. Obviously the AI assessment of players is based on their historical performance, but the other AI GMs aren't prescient enough to know this, nor to be familiar with the historical careers in question. This means a human is always ahead of the AI.

Then again, not every player matches, let alone surpasses, their IRL output in the sim. The upped TCR increases the chances of this happening. I don't go silly with it, normally 130-140 max. It is at 110 for my Bucs save.

The Legacy Players also helps in this regard because it takes the big names off the table and - given the Pirates don't get too many bona fide superstars under these rules - again increases the challenge of success. Plus I like the idea of the big names on the whole playing for the clubs they are most associated with.

The rest of the dynamic is something one has to take on oneself, or not - depending on what you want out of the game. Personally I feel to cheat is to cheapen, and try to impose rules and toggle settings to reduce the chance of doing so either on purpose (hey, I'm only human) or inadvertently. As you are doing here with your self-imposed financial constraints.

But it is tough to hang in there when success isn't forthcoming and a trade pops up you know is completely unfair (to your advantage). That's when you find out how high your moral / ethical horse really is.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Pre Season 1966

Nothing happened off season that would make a good newspaper article.

The owner cut the budget due to low ticket sales last year and projected for this year. I'm OK on free agent money but ran out of money for extensions.

Dick McAuliffe is grumpy about an extension and wants more money/years than I think he's worth. Making him an offer is when I learned I was out of extension money.

Jim Northrup popped up in Spring Training as a passable CF so I salary dumped CF Lenny Green.

I learned later that as money comes in you can get the extension money above zero.

Enough to afford McAuliffe?

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Trivia

In a game in 1952 Bob Elliott was 6 for 6 with 2 HRs and 10 RBI. That single game production is 6% of his career HRs (34) and 6% of his career RBI (154).

There have been four pitching Triple Crowns, accomplished by Vic Raschi, Don Drysdale, Mickey Lolich, and Sandy Koufax. Mickey Mantle has the only batting Triple Crown.

There have been 21 no hitters. The Pirates were involved in eight, seven for and one against. The two perfect games were thrown by Bob Friend and Bob Gibson.

Joe Torre has the highest season batting average at .373 but he is only #23 on the career list at .302. Willie Mays leads in career batting average at .322.

Mickey Mantle has the season record for HRs with 52. Roger Maris is tied for 15th with 43.

Casey Stengel has the highest managers winning percentage at .659. He managed two years, won two World Series, and retired. Chuck Dressen has the most wins with 1369 and a .584 winning percentage.

The AL leads in World Series wins 10 - 5. The Yankees have the most World Series wins with 6.

The California Angels became the first expansion team to have a winning record (1964) the first to win a pennant (1965) and the first to win a World Series (1965).

Hank Aaron is playing for the Yankees. Mickey Mantle is playing for the Braves.

It is for posts such as this that I really miss the THANKS button. Great stuff B.

[Brad K]

At the 1966 trade deadline... deleted due to display issues

Edit again.. OK I think I have it.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by luckymann

Enough to afford McAuliffe?

Enough for what he wanted in April but not enough for what he wanted in July.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Enough for what he wanted in April but not enough for what he wanted in July.

Nice trade, then. good to have an IRL RoY on the squad, here's hoping he lasts longer for you than he actually did! And puts some bums in seats!

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by luckymann

It is for posts such as this that I really miss the THANKS button. Great stuff B.

Cool. I'll do it again!!!

[Brad K]

Hubbs is completely on the development engine starting in 1965. So we'll see.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by luckymann

Yeah, this is one element of the game that fascinates me and is why I always set TCR above 100. Obviously the AI assessment of players is based on their historical performance, but the other AI GMs aren't prescient enough to know this, nor to be familiar with the historical careers in question. This means a human is always ahead of the AI.

Then again, not every player matches, let alone surpasses, their IRL output in the sim. The upped TCR increases the chances of this happening. I don't go silly with it, normally 130-140 max. It is at 110 for my Bucs save.

The Legacy Players also helps in this regard because it takes the big names off the table and - given the Pirates don't get too many bona fide superstars under these rules - again increases the challenge of success. Plus I like the idea of the big names on the whole playing for the clubs they are most associated with.

The rest of the dynamic is something one has to take on oneself, or not - depending on what you want out of the game. Personally I feel to cheat is to cheapen, and try to impose rules and toggle settings to reduce the chance of doing so either on purpose (hey, I'm only human) or inadvertently. As you are doing here with your self-imposed financial constraints.

But it is tough to hang in there when success isn't forthcoming and a trade pops up you know is completely unfair (to your advantage). That's when you find out how high your moral / ethical horse really is.

Y'know, all I have to do to be satisfied is win 3 World Series in 58ish years! If I win too many more than that I'll have to be looking for ways to make the next game harder. I'm overdue for the first one though. Surely one of those late 50s to early 60s teams could have gotten to the top with some luck.

I haven't been offered any trades that are an obvious great deal for me right now. Just ones that might be in the future.

[Brad K]

Here's a pre season newspaper clipping

[luckymann]

bring it on!!!!!

[Brad K]

OK lets see

[Brad K]

Relief pitching is weak.