Historical MLB/Minors roster and db issues go here - Page 33

Amazin69 · 11-29-2016, 09:33 PM

Thanks.

A quick check through one of my modern-day games shows that John Henry Johnson (only other player I can think of with this situation, and obviously not in any 1969 games) was not similarly afflicted, so that's good.

So, if I download the latest patch and restart my game, I should have one (and only one) Jim Ray Hart, with all majors and minors stats included? Or is there something else I would need to do?

Spritze · 11-29-2016, 09:43 PM

Fix will not appear until ootp18

Amazin69 · 11-30-2016, 04:55 AM

Fair enough.

Small tangent: players with incorrect/missing birthplaces were being discussed on the previous page. I understand if you don't add Hart's (Hookerton NC, population 409) to the database, but you should know that Jerry Koosman is coming up as Appleton, WI, which is a mistake. Kooz is from Appleton, MN, of course.

Once more, thanks.

ETA: fired up a 1984 test league to check out some other candidates

Billy Jo Robidoux is listed as having "Jo Robidoux" as his surname, his Historic ID is missing, and all he has left are his MiLB stats, no majors included on his Real-Life stats

Roy Lee Jackson is the other side of this divide; name is correct, has the Historic ID but no Historic Minors ID, has his majors stats but no minors stats. Same thing for John Henry Johnson.

I'd assume that because Jackson and Johnson are currently (1984) in the majors where Robidoux is still only in the minors, the game is choosing which "half" of the career to keep and discarding the other. At least it's not generating a duplicate, as it did with the Jim Ray Harts (Jims Ray Hart?), but that's still an issue.

Potentially larger issue: it seems as though all retired players from before a certain point (looks to be "began their careers before 1950", but I don't really have it narrowed down that precisely as yet) lose their Historic Minors ID and their minor-league records. Is this a glitch? Working as designed? Or simply something I would need to toggle? Just wondering.

Spritze · 11-30-2016, 11:32 AM

depends on your league start date

Amazin69 · 11-30-2016, 02:08 PM

So there actually is a formula that "players who started/ended their careers x amount of years before start date do not get their minors history imported", is that it?

Are there options on this? Because I rather like being able to compare what Ted Williams and Willie Mays hit at Minneapolis, regardless of what year my game is set in.

And if it is WAD, then at least it's good to know it's not a bug, I guess. But I'd like to lobby to change this in v.18, though.

Small database error: minor league OF Raymond Hunnicutt (hunnic000ray) has a duplicate. The 2nd version has no Minor League ID nor any stats, but as both of them are already retired heading into 2016, it's a minor (pardon the pun) issue, anyway.

ETA: We also seem to have a second Joe Davenport listed. This breaks down differently, though; one Joe has both the Historic ID and Historic Minors ID, as well as the proper birthdate (3/24/76) and the majors stats, while the other is a complete blank slate with no IDs and no stats, and with the birthdate wrongly listed as "3/24/77". Neither Joe has his minors stats, despite being far too contemporary to have shed them.

thehef · 11-30-2016, 02:33 PM

Not sure if this merely falls under the heading of cosmetic but does not affect player ratings, etc... or if it's a significant issue:

Several players - Carl Christian, Bert Cole, Herman Pillette, Willie Ludolph as examples - who played in the PCL at least in 1925 thru 1927 have Real Life Stats for 1925 & 1927, but nothing for 1926.

I don't know how widespread it is beyond these examples, and if it extends beyond PCL players or what...

mitchkenn · 12-01-2016, 05:19 PM

that's weird, since they all have minor league stats for 1926 in bb reference .... i thought maybe they didn't play in the minors that year, but upon checking, they did play in the PCL. - ????

thehef · 12-01-2016, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mitchkenn

that's weird, since they all have minor league stats for 1926 in bb reference .... i thought maybe they didn't play in the minors that year, but upon checking, they did play in the PCL. - ????

Since my post yesterday, I have found a BUNCH more. I'm guessing/hoping that it's some sort of display or data glitch and that it has no effect on ratings, etc. Will wait for Spritze to confirm, though.

Spritze · 12-01-2016, 09:56 PM

1926 is included in the database. Must be a bug?

Amazin69 · 12-02-2016, 07:30 PM

One more case where the "Two First Names Creates a Döppelgänger" issue comes up, only this is caused by a player with a two-word nickname.

Created a 1962 league (for a different purpose) and the Pirates have the services of "Vinegar Bend" Mizell, with the Historic ID (mizelvi01) and the major-league stats…but their AAA team, the Columbus Jets, have a guy named Vinegar "Bend Mizell", using the Historic Minors ID (mizell002wil) and having the minor-league stats, but nothing showing since 1951, as Mizell had been in the majors since then. Again, please reintegrate.

Perhaps this entire scenario could be avoided by listing the future congressman as "Wilmer Mizell" and putting "Vinegar Bend" as a nickname, which it was? To be fair, though, I don't know how often people called him "Wilmer". I'd have to dig out my copy of The Long Season to see what Jim Brosnan says; they were teammates on the 1959 Cardinals. (Although I seem to recall "Broz" calling Mizell "Miz", which would be no help at all…)

Who else do we have this problem with? Bullet Joe Bush? Sad Sam Jones? Piano Legs Hickman? Sigh…

ETA: Oy vey. And also, "Oy vey".

While Hickman is logically filed away as "Charlie 'Piano Legs' Hickman", Bush comes up as: Bullet Joe "Bullet Joe" Bush, his sobriquet listed both as if it were his legal name AND his nickname, which is clearly one Bullet more than the gun is supposed to hold. So this needs to be cleaned up, and that's not even considering the possibility that there's some duplicate with the first name "Bullet" and the surname "Joe Bush" running around with Bush's minor-league stats, which I can't see from the perspective of my 1962 game, because they get deleted (as discussed above). But even without creating a 1927 or whatever game, I can see that Bush needs fixing.

Same problem for Sad Sam "Sad Sam" Jones, who must be very Sad Sad that he's subject to that much despair. Sigh Sigh.

Spritze · 12-02-2016, 07:47 PM

Oddly enough a players name is just a label it has no meaning so only their ID has meaning. Players can have 2 ID's MLB and MiLB.

A small number of ID challenges were reported and fixed but they won't show up until ootp18

thehef · 12-04-2016, 06:07 PM

Submitted as a service, not a complaint... 1920's era (approximately) MiLB players who do not appear to import to OOTP:

Lefty Vinci
Wally Knox
John Smirch
Cliff Best
Eddie Moore (James Edward, b 8/15/1899, significant MiL career from 1920-32.)
Herbert C. Smith, b 1898, MiLB 1920-1941
Sylvester Kohlenberg
Ray Pipkin
Gus Burleson
Jackie Robertson
Roy Edward Wilson
Guy Powell

Not a complete list. Just what I've found so far... A few of these guys had significant enough MiLB careers to where they should be included. Many others' careers make their inclusion less-important.

In addition:
Two 1920's era Bill Plummers import to OOTP. These seem to be the same player, with the pitcher being more accurate than the 3rd baseman...

Spritze · 12-05-2016, 01:34 PM

I'd wait for ver 18 as I checked the Plummers and found no issues.

thehef · 12-05-2016, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I'd wait for ver 18 as I checked the Plummers and found no issues.

Cool. Same answer - wait for v18 - for the players above who haven't imported?

Spritze · 12-05-2016, 02:31 PM

Yes as I am unclarified as to the rules used to decide who imports and when in the OOTP minors. Guess is that they are unaffiliated players?

Amazin69 · 12-07-2016, 05:01 PM

Good point that the display name is merely cosmetic, but we still do have to worry about more doppelgangers being out there. I guess there's no problem for Bush or Jones because their minor-league careers came from before we have historic minors and I see that "Pee-Wee" Wanninger used a hyphen, so we don't have to worry about the "Wee" part running off with "Wanninger" to make a second player, but I'm thinking there's probably a second Pee Wee Reese out there, holding Harold's minor-league stats separate from his MLB ones. Haven't done a test league to check though, yet.

Different issue: the minor league San Diego Padres are coming up as a major league team in players' stats, and this is throwing off the career MLB totals.

I mean, it's nice that my game's Hall of Fame voted in Minnie Minoso in just his third year on the ballot when IRL Minnie still isn't in…but part of that is because they thought he had 2323 career hits (IRL 1963) and a .302 lifetime BA (IRL .298) due to his 1949-1950 seasons in San Diego being misclassified. Please fix this.

As far as I can determine, the cutoff point seems to be whether you played minor-league ball after 1945; 1945 Padres Dick Gyselman and Pete Coscarart had their stats included in their career totals, because they kept going for a few more years, but player-manager Pepper Martin hung up his spikes after the season and his 1945 San Diego totals are not listed, either as MLB or AAA stats. And it can go back farther; Steve Mesner had a big year for the Pads in 1940 and returned to SD in the latter part of the decade, and so all of those seasons are in his career "major league" totals now.

And I'm just guessing that the reason this is only happening for the Padres is that they are the only PCL team to use the same name as a major-league franchise currently does. If the Oaks, Seals or Rainiers had been succeeded by a MLB team with the same nickname, we'd probably be seeing more of it. But apparently the Los Angeles/California/Anaheim/Los Angeles Angels (of Anaheim) don't correspond closely enough with the PCL version of the Los Angeles Angels for the issue to recur, up there.

Again, thanks in advance.

Spritze · 12-07-2016, 05:17 PM

Padre is a known bug and was reported in OOTP 17 beta but not fixed (yet).

Names with or without hyphens, spaces and dashes have been fixed but will not show until OOTP18. May have missed a few but also maybe not.

thehef · 12-12-2016, 02:01 PM

Not sure if this is the right place for this, but I noticed that for every new team/league in 1939 (Bi-State League, Interstate League, Arizona-Texas League, Tar Heel League, PONY League), no new first-year players imported to those teams. Based upon testing since minors start in OOTP (1919), I've seen instances where a few teams have very few (sometimes less than 5) first-year players import to them; that would seem logical. However, when every new team in a given year has zero imported players, that tells me that there's an issue.

Whether this is an issue with the players not being made available to OOTP yet, a bug on OOTP's end, or something else, I have no clue. But I thought I'd at least bring attention to this here.

As for other seasons, I haven't gone past 1939 yet. It appears as though this might've happened the previous year (Arkansas-Missouri League in 1938, for example)... Based upon a spot-check of other leagues, it also looks like it happened with the Eastern League in 1932, Florida St League, Ohio St League, SALY in 1936. But it clearly did not happen to other leagues in the same timeframe.

In another thread, there was this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Not every league has been downloaded from bbref yet. Thanks for the list, I'll forward it to BigRod.

However, that was in reply to a question about leagues with MLB affiliates that were not in OOTP yet. In this case, we are talking about leagues that are in OOTP, but without players. I'm wondering in this case if perhaps the leagues & teams are in OOTP, but the answer above applies to the players... Spritze will likely know, or at least have an educated-enough guess...

Spritze · 12-12-2016, 02:51 PM

Some leagues on BBref have very few to no players. For 18 we need ideas how to handle this issue.

1) Turn off those leagues?
2) Have a minor league free agent draft to fill them up?
3) Some other third option?
4) Cherry Bomb by the Runaways!

thehef · 12-12-2016, 03:04 PM

Replies below

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Some leagues on BBref have very few to no players. For 18 we need ideas how to handle this issue.

1) Turn off those leagues? Perhaps, especially if by doing so it streamlines things and makes it seem as though historical minors were a bit more stable than in real life. YMMV, but for me, although I want access to as many minor-leaguers as possible, I am not overly concerned with the historically-accurate existence of the D and E leagues. So if those players are not available, then it's no biggie to me if those leagues aren't in OOTP...
2) Have a minor league free agent draft to fill them up? That would be great, especially if it were flexible enough to where the gamer could choose which leagues/teams would participate in the draft (for example, you might want the indy's in a league to participate, but not those already affiliated w MLB).
3) Some other third option? Sure
4) Cherry Bomb by the Runaways! An inspired idea that is never a bad option.

11-29-2016, 09:43 PM	#642
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Fix will not appear until ootp18 __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

11-30-2016, 04:55 AM	#643
Amazin69 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,363 Infractions: 0/2 (2)	Fair enough. Small tangent: players with incorrect/missing birthplaces were being discussed on the previous page. I understand if you don't add Hart's (Hookerton NC, population 409) to the database, but you should know that Jerry Koosman is coming up as Appleton, WI, which is a mistake. Kooz is from Appleton, MN, of course. Once more, thanks. ETA: fired up a 1984 test league to check out some other candidates Billy Jo Robidoux is listed as having "Jo Robidoux" as his surname, his Historic ID is missing, and all he has left are his MiLB stats, no majors included on his Real-Life stats Roy Lee Jackson is the other side of this divide; name is correct, has the Historic ID but no Historic Minors ID, has his majors stats but no minors stats. Same thing for John Henry Johnson. I'd assume that because Jackson and Johnson are currently (1984) in the majors where Robidoux is still only in the minors, the game is choosing which "half" of the career to keep and discarding the other. At least it's not generating a duplicate, as it did with the Jim Ray Harts (Jims Ray Hart?), but that's still an issue. Potentially larger issue: it seems as though all retired players from before a certain point (looks to be "began their careers before 1950", but I don't really have it narrowed down that precisely as yet) lose their Historic Minors ID and their minor-league records. Is this a glitch? Working as designed? Or simply something I would need to toggle? Just wondering. Last edited by Amazin69; 11-30-2016 at 08:54 AM.

11-30-2016, 11:32 AM	#644
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	depends on your league start date __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

11-30-2016, 02:08 PM	#645
Amazin69 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,363 Infractions: 0/2 (2)	So there actually is a formula that "players who started/ended their careers x amount of years before start date do not get their minors history imported", is that it? Are there options on this? Because I rather like being able to compare what Ted Williams and Willie Mays hit at Minneapolis, regardless of what year my game is set in. And if it is WAD, then at least it's good to know it's not a bug, I guess. But I'd like to lobby to change this in v.18, though. Small database error: minor league OF Raymond Hunnicutt (hunnic000ray) has a duplicate. The 2nd version has no Minor League ID nor any stats, but as both of them are already retired heading into 2016, it's a minor (pardon the pun) issue, anyway. ETA: We also seem to have a second Joe Davenport listed. This breaks down differently, though; one Joe has both the Historic ID and Historic Minors ID, as well as the proper birthdate (3/24/76) and the majors stats, while the other is a complete blank slate with no IDs and no stats, and with the birthdate wrongly listed as "3/24/77". Neither Joe has his minors stats, despite being far too contemporary to have shed them. Last edited by Amazin69; 11-30-2016 at 02:33 PM.

11-30-2016, 02:33 PM	#646
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,296	Not sure if this merely falls under the heading of cosmetic but does not affect player ratings, etc... or if it's a significant issue: Several players - Carl Christian, Bert Cole, Herman Pillette, Willie Ludolph as examples - who played in the PCL at least in 1925 thru 1927 have Real Life Stats for 1925 & 1927, but nothing for 1926. I don't know how widespread it is beyond these examples, and if it extends beyond PCL players or what... Last edited by thehef; 11-30-2016 at 05:51 PM. Reason: clarity

11-29-2016, 09:33 PM	#641
Amazin69 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,363 Infractions: 0/2 (2)	Thanks. A quick check through one of my modern-day games shows that John Henry Johnson (only other player I can think of with this situation, and obviously not in any 1969 games) was not similarly afflicted, so that's good. So, if I download the latest patch and restart my game, I should have one (and only one) Jim Ray Hart, with all majors and minors stats included? Or is there something else I would need to do?

12-01-2016, 05:19 PM	#647
mitchkenn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Oregon, not by design Posts: 2,872	that's weird, since they all have minor league stats for 1926 in bb reference .... i thought maybe they didn't play in the minors that year, but upon checking, they did play in the PCL. - ???? __________________ "This is my opening farewell " - Jackson Browne “They make a desolation and call it peace.” ― Agha Shahid Ali "Maybe she just has to sing, for the sake of the song - And who do I think that I am to decide that she's wrong." - Townes Van Zandt "I saw a young man leaning on his wooden crutch - He called out to me, 'Don't ask for so much' And a young woman leaning in her darkened door She cried out to me, 'Why not ask for more?' " - Leonard Cohen "Hello darkness, my old Friend ...." - Paul Simon Before Mays, before DiMaggio, there was Oscar Charleston. "All the lies about Babe Ruth are true." - Waite Hoyt Avatar is the late great Townes Van Zandt. rip.

12-01-2016, 09:56 PM	#649
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	1926 is included in the database. Must be a bug? __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

12-02-2016, 07:30 PM	#650
Amazin69 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,363 Infractions: 0/2 (2)	Two Names, Two Players…Too Many, again One more case where the "Two First Names Creates a Döppelgänger" issue comes up, only this is caused by a player with a two-word nickname. Created a 1962 league (for a different purpose) and the Pirates have the services of "Vinegar Bend" Mizell, with the Historic ID (mizelvi01) and the major-league stats…but their AAA team, the Columbus Jets, have a guy named Vinegar "Bend Mizell", using the Historic Minors ID (mizell002wil) and having the minor-league stats, but nothing showing since 1951, as Mizell had been in the majors since then. Again, please reintegrate. Perhaps this entire scenario could be avoided by listing the future congressman as "Wilmer Mizell" and putting "Vinegar Bend" as a nickname, which it was? To be fair, though, I don't know how often people called him "Wilmer". I'd have to dig out my copy of The Long Season to see what Jim Brosnan says; they were teammates on the 1959 Cardinals. (Although I seem to recall "Broz" calling Mizell "Miz", which would be no help at all…) Who else do we have this problem with? Bullet Joe Bush? Sad Sam Jones? Piano Legs Hickman? Sigh… ETA: Oy vey. And also, "Oy vey". While Hickman is logically filed away as "Charlie 'Piano Legs' Hickman", Bush comes up as: Bullet Joe "Bullet Joe" Bush, his sobriquet listed both as if it were his legal name AND his nickname, which is clearly one Bullet more than the gun is supposed to hold. So this needs to be cleaned up, and that's not even considering the possibility that there's some duplicate with the first name "Bullet" and the surname "Joe Bush" running around with Bush's minor-league stats, which I can't see from the perspective of my 1962 game, because they get deleted (as discussed above). But even without creating a 1927 or whatever game, I can see that Bush needs fixing. Same problem for Sad Sam "Sad Sam" Jones, who must be very Sad Sad that he's subject to that much despair. Sigh Sigh. Last edited by Amazin69; 12-02-2016 at 07:46 PM.

12-02-2016, 07:47 PM	#651
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Oddly enough a players name is just a label it has no meaning so only their ID has meaning. Players can have 2 ID's MLB and MiLB. A small number of ID challenges were reported and fixed but they won't show up until ootp18 __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it! Last edited by Spritze; 12-02-2016 at 07:49 PM.

12-04-2016, 06:07 PM	#652
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,296	Submitted as a service, not a complaint... 1920's era (approximately) MiLB players who do not appear to import to OOTP: Lefty Vinci Wally Knox John Smirch Cliff Best Eddie Moore (James Edward, b 8/15/1899, significant MiL career from 1920-32.) Herbert C. Smith, b 1898, MiLB 1920-1941 Sylvester Kohlenberg Ray Pipkin Gus Burleson Jackie Robertson Roy Edward Wilson Guy Powell Not a complete list. Just what I've found so far... A few of these guys had significant enough MiLB careers to where they should be included. Many others' careers make their inclusion less-important. In addition: Two 1920's era Bill Plummers import to OOTP. These seem to be the same player, with the pitcher being more accurate than the 3rd baseman...

12-05-2016, 01:34 PM	#653
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	I'd wait for ver 18 as I checked the Plummers and found no issues. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

12-05-2016, 02:31 PM	#655
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Yes as I am unclarified as to the rules used to decide who imports and when in the OOTP minors. Guess is that they are unaffiliated players? __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

12-07-2016, 05:01 PM	#656
Amazin69 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 3,363 Infractions: 0/2 (2)	Good point that the display name is merely cosmetic, but we still do have to worry about more doppelgangers being out there. I guess there's no problem for Bush or Jones because their minor-league careers came from before we have historic minors and I see that "Pee-Wee" Wanninger used a hyphen, so we don't have to worry about the "Wee" part running off with "Wanninger" to make a second player, but I'm thinking there's probably a second Pee Wee Reese out there, holding Harold's minor-league stats separate from his MLB ones. Haven't done a test league to check though, yet. Different issue: the minor league San Diego Padres are coming up as a major league team in players' stats, and this is throwing off the career MLB totals. I mean, it's nice that my game's Hall of Fame voted in Minnie Minoso in just his third year on the ballot when IRL Minnie still isn't in…but part of that is because they thought he had 2323 career hits (IRL 1963) and a .302 lifetime BA (IRL .298) due to his 1949-1950 seasons in San Diego being misclassified. Please fix this. As far as I can determine, the cutoff point seems to be whether you played minor-league ball after 1945; 1945 Padres Dick Gyselman and Pete Coscarart had their stats included in their career totals, because they kept going for a few more years, but player-manager Pepper Martin hung up his spikes after the season and his 1945 San Diego totals are not listed, either as MLB or AAA stats. And it can go back farther; Steve Mesner had a big year for the Pads in 1940 and returned to SD in the latter part of the decade, and so all of those seasons are in his career "major league" totals now. And I'm just guessing that the reason this is only happening for the Padres is that they are the only PCL team to use the same name as a major-league franchise currently does. If the Oaks, Seals or Rainiers had been succeeded by a MLB team with the same nickname, we'd probably be seeing more of it. But apparently the Los Angeles/California/Anaheim/Los Angeles Angels (of Anaheim) don't correspond closely enough with the PCL version of the Los Angeles Angels for the issue to recur, up there. Again, thanks in advance.

12-07-2016, 05:17 PM	#657
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Padre is a known bug and was reported in OOTP 17 beta but not fixed (yet). Names with or without hyphens, spaces and dashes have been fixed but will not show until OOTP18. May have missed a few but also maybe not. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it! Last edited by Spritze; 12-07-2016 at 05:21 PM.

12-12-2016, 02:51 PM	#659
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Some leagues on BBref have very few to no players. For 18 we need ideas how to handle this issue. 1) Turn off those leagues? 2) Have a minor league free agent draft to fill them up? 3) Some other third option? 4) Cherry Bomb by the Runaways! __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!