Feedback Wanted / OOTP Marketing

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by tajoumaru

What about offering two versions of the game, the current in-depth "hardcore" one, and a second, much simpler one that would appeal to a more casual set? The "casual" version of OOTP could be sold for around $5 less and be far easier to set up and maintain--remove many of the options, etc.

I think that tajoumaru is on to something here. You don't necessarily need to make a separate version of the game. I think that it would be good to have a few more "beginner friendly" game options on the main menu based on current MLB or historical rosters. Basic game modes may include:

- Manager Mode - You pick a team and act as the field manager making game decisions while the AI handles the GM role.
- GM Mode - You pick a team and act as the GM letting the AI run game decisions.
- Commissioner Mode - Let the AI run the decisions but you have the ability to jump in and act in god mode as desired.

You certainly don't need console level graphics but I do agree that having better 2D or basic 3D animations along with better sounds would be a huge addition in attracting a wider audience.

The key here would be that this should have NO impact on the game for us hard core users. While the hand-holding and stripped down interface would make us lifers laugh in hysterics, it could be huge in adding more users who would eventually get curious about the more complex capabilities of the game.

I know that someone is going to reply that focusing time and resources on improving the animations and sounds will detract from the development of things which are more important to us (like playoff byes ). If successful this would be a short term issue which could pay off in spades. Think of it this way. Take your choice between the following options. First, you could have season tickets in some fairly nice seats in the 15th row between 3rd base and the foul pole every year....or....you could spend one year in the nose-bleeds but then sit in the first row behind the home dugout every year after that. Which would you choose?

[Afino]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I guess this begs the question: How is OOTP really doing? I can tell interest is really down from other years early on.

Why do you think they're having a little pow-wow soon?

People told me when I said that not to be all worried, that this meant nothing bad, but I can't help but think that.

Although now that I see this thread, maybe this is one of the big topics to be discussed.

[Cool Papa Bell]

But the question is, how do you get someone to buy a more 'beginner friendly' version to begin with? The whole thread started with how to increase sales and/or market share I thought. Unless you expand the market share somehow, you're still preaching to the choir, beginner or expert or in between version or not. Where is the bang for the buck so to speak? I can tell you right now, my kids aren't interested in OOTP or SOM or any simulation game, simple or complex or otherwise...unless I walk thru it with them and show them how it works...and even then, interest wanes quickly. Now if they could sim games tapping red red green blue red red like Guitar Hero...then you'd be on to something...

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by professor ape

I think that tajoumaru is on to something here. You don't necessarily need to make a separate version of the game. I think that it would be good to have a few more "beginner friendly" game options on the main menu based on current MLB or historical rosters. Basic game modes may include:

- Manager Mode - You pick a team and act as the field manager making game decisions while the AI handles the GM role.
- GM Mode - You pick a team and act as the GM letting the AI run game decisions.
- Commissioner Mode - Let the AI run the decisions but you have the ability to jump in and act in god mode as desired.

You certainly don't need console level graphics but I do agree that having better 2D or basic 3D animations along with better sounds would be a huge addition in attracting a wider audience.

The key here would be that this should have NO impact on the game for us hard core users. While the hand-holding and stripped down interface would make us lifers laugh in hysterics, it could be huge in adding more users who would eventually get curious about the more complex capabilities of the game.

but it will have an impact because rather than continuing to enhance the game, the focus will now be on ways to "dumb it down" for novice users.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Cool Papa Bell

But the question is, how do you get someone to buy a more 'beginner friendly' version to begin with? The whole thread started with how to increase sales and/or market share I thought. Unless you expand the market share somehow, you're still preaching to the choir, beginner or expert or in between version or not. Where is the bang for the buck so to speak? I can tell you right now, my kids aren't interested in OOTP or SOM or any simulation game, simple or complex or otherwise...unless I walk thru it with them and show them how it works...and even then, interest wanes quickly. Now if they could sim games tapping red red green blue red red like Guitar Hero...then you'd be on to something...

exactly

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

but it will have an impact because rather than continuing to enhance the game, the focus will now be on ways to "dumb it down" for novice users.

So you triple the client base, spend half of the added revenue on features for the novice players and the other half on features for the core players. We core players still come out way ahead in the long run.

Also, I realize that I did not give any advice about how to market the game to increase the market share. I was focusing on what could be done to make the game marketable to a wider audience.

[Cool Papa Bell]

It's a noble idea, but triple the client base with it? Is that something that you really think can happen? Simplifying the game is not going to triple any client base, just my opinion. The people playing sims are a niche audience. I personally don't know anyone that was driven away from buying a simulation game because it was too complicated, but I don't know everyone in the world, so maybe. The key is cracking into markets that are similar...fantasy games being the closest. That market is driven by pretty much one thing...moola...show me the money...or the prizes...and they are in. The next untapped one is the captured audience...people already buying the game. Official releases of seasons and specialty sets the easiest. I know quite a few guys who won't buy OOTP over SOM because they release the official set that everyone uses that is quote unquote 'historically accurate'. That is a fact...I know hundreds of them.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by bubba22plus

Anyways, how about like a lite mode in game, that's there just to get new users settled faster.

You don't even need a special mode in the game. I think all you need are the OOTP equivalent of something commonly found in strategy games: difficulty settings.

Difficulty settings in OOTP would entail having a variety of options and settings bundled together that are turned on or off by selecting that difficulty level (if one finds the word "difficulty" problematic in this context, then substitute "complexity" instead).

The simplest setting, for example, might turn off just about all the transaction rules and related settings, meaning the GM doesn't have to worry about options, waivers, or any of that stuff. They can just concentrate on building the best roster for their team. Think Front Page Sports: Baseball for an idea of the GM complexity involved.

The highest setting, which one might call the "hard-core" or "grognard" setting, would turn on every transaction rule and turn on all relevant game selections. The person playing this setting has to deal with every nuance and technicality of major league transaction rules, maybe even some they've not heard of before. (It's not called the grognard setting for nothing! )

You could have any number of settings in-between these, catering to different levels of complexity.

The advantage is that the user can select their preferred level with just a single click, and thus don't have to hunt through a bunch of menu screens to find the game options they want to turn on or off—it's all been taken care of already. (And, of course, for the tweaker, they could select "custom" and then go through the menus turning on or off options individually as they please, just as is the case currently.)

[Cool Papa Bell]

Maybe I'm missing something, but isn't 'difficulty' levels already built into the game. I guess they can be dummy proofed pretty easily as LGO just explained, but again...the question...how many more copies is that going to sell?

Okay, I have a million ideas, but here's my last before I have to go. I sold many of my old SOM sets to off all places...schools...math teachers to be exact. Laugh all you want, but they bought them to teach statistics and probability to kids in a game format that kids not only understood but loved. And you know how many copies that sold? Well, I don't know either, but it sold some I can tell you that. We became Sim-geeks because there was no such thing as Playstation or Wii when I was a kid. Hell, there wasn't even Atari...we were the captive audience. Maybe us Neanterthal Sim-Geeks need to groom the next generation of Cro-Magnon Sim-Geeks...go right to the source...kids when they're still kids. Cause they grow up and stay Sim-Geeks for a lifetime most of the time.

[professor ape]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

You don't even need a special mode in the game. I think all you need are the OOTP equivalent of something commonly found in strategy games: difficulty settings.

Difficulty settings in OOTP would entail having a variety of options and settings bundled together that are turned on or off by selecting that difficulty level (if one finds the word "difficulty" problematic in this context, then substitute "complexity" instead).

The simplest setting, for example, might turn off just about all the transaction rules and related settings, meaning the GM doesn't have to worry about options, waivers, or any of that stuff. They can just concentrate on building the best roster for their team. Think Front Page Sports: Baseball for an idea of the GM complexity involved.

The highest setting, which one might call the "hard-core" or "grognard" setting, would turn on every transaction rule and turn on all relevant game selections. The person playing this setting has to deal with every nuance and technicality of major league transaction rules, maybe even some they've not heard of before. (It's not called the grognard setting for nothing! )

You could have any number of settings in-between these, catering to different levels of complexity.

The advantage is that the user can select their preferred level with just a single click, and thus don't have to hunt through a bunch of menu screens to find the game options they want to turn on or off—it's all been taken care of already. (And, of course, for the tweaker, they could select "custom" and then go through the menus turning on or off options individually as they please, just as is the case currently.)

What he said.

[Harry Chiti]

I haven't bought this years version for a few reasons...economy, new baby, wife taking away my credit cards, not that much free time, but I will eventually!

I've bought for quite a few years in a row until now, but...

Here's my problem, every year I buy and dabble, and spend much more time fine-tuning my league parameters, creating uniforms, getting add-ons, stadiums, etc. There is just so much **** to play with I hardly spend time playing the game, itself!

I feel that I just keep buying it every year, because I want to support something I wish existed when I was a kid and had the time to play it! I love OOTP and hope it prospers.

But with a family, work, coaching sports, there is precious little time left for pursuits like this. What computer time I do get, (outside of work) is spent playing football manager, (which isn't much).

Fantasy baseball works because people can log in at work - that's much harder to do with OOTP - most bosses would be less than enthused with an employee installing something on the work computer, like OOTP.

I think you need to continue working on/with the ultra-geeks. The sabrematric crowd, these are the people that really 'get it'. The whole potential behind the program.

I keep coming back to these forums becasue of some really interesting discussions on them about sabrematrics.

could you not partner up with some of these sites, and incorporate a copy of OOTP into their membership fees?

The more you get that community talking about OOTP, the more the mainstream guys will try it, in time.

Of course, this means you'll have to try to incorporate as many of the new sabrematric 'models' that come out explaining the real game - into OOTP. As you already seem to do.

I think the ultra geeks are your core audience - and you should pander to them - and in time (just like they did with real baseball) they'll drag the mainstream fans into OOTP.

thats my two cents

[JWay]

https://twitter.com/#search?q=%23OOTPX

Classic Baseball Union sending out all sorts of OOTPX love all over Twitter!

[Raidergoo]

Use Twitter. eMLB has three different feeds.

Total Sports World (TSWDigest) on Twitter

Joe Simpson (tswsimpson) on Twitter

James LeBlond (tswEthanKnight) on Twitter

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

You don't even need a special mode in the game. I think all you need are the OOTP equivalent of something commonly found in strategy games: difficulty settings.

Difficulty settings in OOTP would entail having a variety of options and settings bundled together that are turned on or off by selecting that difficulty level (if one finds the word "difficulty" problematic in this context, then substitute "complexity" instead).

The simplest setting, for example, might turn off just about all the transaction rules and related settings, meaning the GM doesn't have to worry about options, waivers, or any of that stuff. They can just concentrate on building the best roster for their team. Think Front Page Sports: Baseball for an idea of the GM complexity involved.

The highest setting, which one might call the "hard-core" or "grognard" setting, would turn on every transaction rule and turn on all relevant game selections. The person playing this setting has to deal with every nuance and technicality of major league transaction rules, maybe even some they've not heard of before. (It's not called the grognard setting for nothing! )

You could have any number of settings in-between these, catering to different levels of complexity.

The advantage is that the user can select their preferred level with just a single click, and thus don't have to hunt through a bunch of menu screens to find the game options they want to turn on or off—it's all been taken care of already. (And, of course, for the tweaker, they could select "custom" and then go through the menus turning on or off options individually as they please, just as is the case currently.)

These settings already exist

[JWay]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Use Twitter. eMLB has three different feeds.

Total Sports World (TSWDigest) on Twitter

Joe Simpson (tswsimpson) on Twitter

James LeBlond (tswEthanKnight) on Twitter

following!

Classic Baseball U (cbu_ootp) on Twitter
SF Uber Giraffes (UberGiraffes) on Twitter
cbuoutlaws (cbuoutlaws) on Twitter
Peoria Pedestrians (cbupedestrians) on Twitter
CBU Princeton (cbuBlkSquirrels) on Twitter

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

These settings already exist

Uh, I think not.....

You can set the game up to be more simple, but it is not simple setting it up....

However, I agree that Mr. Staub's suggestion is a good one for casual gamers, but PLEASE, don't start trying to cater to them. They have a zillion options from which to choose to satisfy their baseball fix and I don't think OOTP can or should compete with those products. We geek, anal-retentive, perfectionists only have one choice, and this is it.....

Besides, I don't think the 'casualness' of their experience is what will draw them to OOTP. For casual palette satisfaction, you need more bells and whistles in the graphics department. The depth of game play is what will draw them and I think making the depth more easily accessible is the way to go.....

But never, NEVER make the depth more shallow.....

[Cool Papa Bell]

I agree, dumbing down or making the depth more shallow as QD said may not be the right way to go. However, what about this...and someone may have brought this up already...sell the beginner version with whatever settings that is for say $19.99...then mid-level game for $29.99 and the advanced as it is now for what it is at $39.99. For the 'upgrade', you could sell the beginner buyer at $14.99 per level for example. This way you are not stepping backwards from what you have but still offering the same product at the same price...just giving less advanced or novices the bare bones.

I talked to a few teacher friends of mine and they thought the idea was very cool actually. Sell the fantasy non MLB game to school districts...let the teachers customize it, maybe even to fit their students with their names or school as teams...it gets it in front of a new, young, potential audience who may want to buy the game for home use to do the same thing, except now can have Derek Jeter and the Yankees as well. Again, just throwing schtuff out there and see what sticks...you wanted ideas, right?

[PSUColonel]

I think (as this thread suggests) the issue is how to further market this existing product rather than re-tooling it.

[TribeFanInNC]

I think Harry Chiti (among others) are on to something. It's the sabermetric crowd you want. Not the console crowd or the fantasy baseball crowd. We want the Baseball America crowd and the Hardball Times crowd and the Baseball Prospectus crowd.

Or maybe we are all those crowds

Anyway, I think we probably just want the next half inch of the baseball spectrum near the uber geek. Not the whole area between console and OOTP.

[battists]

These are all great ideas, folks, thanks! I'm not commenting much because I'm just kind of soaking it all in.

As far as Facebook / Twitter / blogs, Jway and others, help explain this to me. Part of my struggle with these is I have a sense (misconception?) that these things are really only valuable if you put a decent amount of time ongoing to keep them up to date, or fresh with new content, etc.

We just don't have someone who has the time to put even, say, an hour a day into writing new content for something like that (let alone all 3). Now, perhaps that's part of the problem, right there, and we'll certainly discuss it.

Afino and others, please don't get the wrong impression! Sales this year are the best in a long time. We don't often get to meet together in person, so when we do so periodically, we talk about some weighty topics. As I mentioned, we don't really have anyone "on staff" who has a strong marketing background, so I just wanted to collect some food for thought for when we meet!

Steve