Curious about lefties and defensive positions

[RchW]

Originally Posted by majesty95

I would say that if a LH was going to play any IF spot other than 1B it would be 2B but still think the difficulties it presented would make it a losing proposition.

It would be worse than 3B SS specifically because of the DP pivot. None of the positions would be tenable in anything outside recreational baseball.

[Dyzalot]

I don't think the pivot would be all that hard. I just pantomined(?) the turn and I could see putting left foot on bag with right foot extending towards left field, take the throw and than step back off the bag with left foot in direction of left-center, pivot counter-clockwise towards first and step forward with right foot towards first as you throw. I'm not saying it would be as slick as a right handed 2nd baseman but it doesn't seem that difficult just from quickly trying the motions out myself. The bag itself would shield you from getting taken out by hard slides or you could jump inside the baseline a bit as you pivot if needed.

[ConStar]

Let me add this about the 6-5-3...

Presuming it were to happen, it would be MORE advantageous for the 3B to be a lefty in that situation, not less -- *if* he was guarding the line.

In this hypothetical, the 3B would be standing with his back to the third base dugout to receive a throw from a SS in the hole. He would already be naturally aligned to throw to first base. If he needed to get out of the way of a takeout slide, he's already in a natural position to hit the bag with his left foot, then step into the throw, going towards the pitcher's mound.

A righty, by comparison, would have to pivot after receiving the throw from the SS in the hole, and is also more vulnerable to the approaching runner from second, because the act of throwing to 1B is going to force him to turn his back to the 2B-3B baseline.

Having said all that, the 6-5-3 is so rare that no one is going to align a defense just for the purpose of having that play in the playbook.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

The difference between a lefty throwing and a right handed guy throwing is milliseconds. Hardly warrants a "large penalty". Also it depends on how the fielder fields the ball. For every situation where a rightly would throw milliseconds faster a lefty would throw milliseconds faster on the other side.

True but,
A. Milliseconds mean the difference between one out and two.
B. Miliseconds mean the difference between one out and zero.
C. A first baseman is much more rarely in a position to make a double play or throw to third.

In major league baseball those differences that might be insignificant in high school or beer league become significant. So the fact a lefty is slowed at SS or 3B prohibits him in the majors even though he might have been faster than a ton of kids in high school. A righty is similarly handicapped at 2B or 1B but much more rarely have to throw to third base. A 2B will throw to first more often than to third and to second is usually a quick flip. SS and 3B are throwing to 2B or 1B the majority of the time.

The key to remember is the most common throw is to first base. 2B so everyone other than 1B is handicapped by being a lefty. Even if it is a fraction of a second slower that turns a significant amount of outs into hits each year. A right handed 2B is slightly handicapped in throwing to 3B but this happens less than throws to 1B so a right is still preferred over a leftie who has an advantage throwing to third on only a few plays.

However, it does hurt a right handed 2B who has to throw to second. Again in most cases this won't happen. You get a flip if he moves toward second and more likely a throw to first if he is moving to first. He would have to turn completely around to throw to 2B if he is chasing a ball toward 1B. I can't think of a situation where a 1B should throw to third instead of taking the easy out at 1B.

[Biggio509]

To the original post though it doesn't matter. The game doesn't generate left handed 3B but you can play a guy there if you want. I don't think it will be a handicap in the game either if his DP, error, and range ratings are good.

I think the game should have a penalty to turn DP that is big enough to keep lefties out of 3B or SS position but I am not sure it does. Although that penalty would apply to throws to first the turn DP penalty if big enough would be enough not to allow a player a rating at 2B, 3B, or SS.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

To the original post though it doesn't matter. The game doesn't generate left handed 3B but you can play a guy there if you want. I don't think it will be a handicap in the game either if his DP, error, and range ratings are good.

I think the game should have a penalty to turn DP that is big enough to keep lefties out of 3B or SS position but I am not sure it does. Although that penalty would apply to throws to first the turn DP penalty if big enough would be enough not to allow a player a rating at 2B, 3B, or SS.

That's kind of the point i tried to make in another thread. lefty infielders are so extremely rare it's pointless to create new code and spend the time to give those players penalties. You're basically creating something new to hinder something that doesn't happen anyway. It's just a waste of time. It would take less time to manually change the handedness of the player yourself. You're talking hours and hours of making code and testing it versus a couple clicks in game to solve the same problem.

Also I still say if they did give lefty 3B and SS penalties throwing to first and second they'd have to do the same for righties throwing to third and second since they'd have to make the extra pivot too. Regardless of it being a rarer play.

[Dyzalot]

In reference to the discussion about third basemen turning double plays as opposed to starting them, the Pirates turned the first 4-5-4 double play in MLB history today.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

In reference to the discussion about third basemen turning double plays as opposed to starting them, the Pirates turned the first 4-5-4 double play in MLB history today.

Not really. It was a triple play. Even then ''turning" by definition is receiving-then-throwing out a runner on a ground ball. Throwing to a base to get a runner caught off base doesn't really qualify. Different actions.

Bucs stun Cards with first 4-5-4 triple play | MLB.com

[Dyzalot]

I'm sorry. Guess I totally misheard the broadcasters.

[Dyzalot]

So here he is three years after being drafted.

[Dyzalot]

Seven years after being drafted.

[RchW]

Not enough of a penalty for LH playing 3B. Unrealistic unfortunately.

[ra7c7er]

Originally Posted by RchW

Not enough of a penalty for LH playing 3B. Unrealistic unfortunately.

To what comparision? That's one player. lefty infielders are so rare it isn't worth spending hours time and pages of code just to create penalties.

[jaysdailydose]

Originally Posted by RchW

Not enough of a penalty for LH playing 3B. Unrealistic unfortunately.

The penalty he is getting is the probability of him being a gold glove outfielder or first baseman. Sure, he's solid at third after all these years, which leads me to believe he'd have been a HOF type defender at a suited position.

I agree with you that it's unrealistic.

I would never even think of putting a lefty at third. My common sense overrides that thought.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

To what comparision? That's one player. lefty infielders are so rare it isn't worth spending hours time and pages of code just to create penalties.

Nah it would be easy. LH playing 2B, SS 3B and C should not not develop experience. Realistic in that no RL team would allow a LH to play enough to get experience because they would be so bad.

Experience drives position ratings in conjunction with skills. That way they should never achieve a position rating. The only downside is that there may not be sufficient penalties for playing with no position rating.

[italyprof]

Originally Posted by ra7c7er

I never paid attention to it either till that thread. I went through every one of the test leagues I still had saves for probably totalling 9,000-10,000 total players looking for lefty players. I found some probably 20-30 infielders (generally rated pretty good) but only one lefty catcher who happened to be in the league I was playing at the time. He had a catastrophic injury before I found him though so his stats were skewed. Before the injury he was a 3 time all-star and 2 time gold glover. after the injury his ratings dropped so much the AI made him a first basemen and in just a couple more years he was a unsignable FA.

Since at least from my looking into it lefty non-1B infielders seem to be on the top end of position players perhaps the game does have something built in. Like if a lefty is at this position he's got to be top X percent of players.

Honestly the whole lefties aren't good enough thing is 100 year old thinking. With the way players train today and become so elite handedness hardly matters. Back 100 years ago the difference between a right handed guy playing third and a left handed guy playing third was probably a ton more.

Disclaimer: I am left-handed, also, sucked at Little League baseball and was usually in RF.

I have always thought that a good athlete that was LH could play 3B with some advantages. If he (or she) cheated away from the line a step or two they could overcome the disdvantage in covering the whole between 3B and SS, while being naturally in the position to throw to second or to first after getting the ball. A slight advantage on the line, and on running in to pick up a bunt and throw around the runner t first, unless the ball was very close to the mound.

[Lou Gehrig]

Originally Posted by italyprof

Disclaimer: I am left-handed, also, sucked at Little League baseball and was usually in RF.

I have always thought that a good athlete that was LH could play 3B with some advantages. If he (or she) cheated away from the line a step or two they could overcome the disdvantage in covering the whole between 3B and SS, while being naturally in the position to throw to second or to first after getting the ball. A slight advantage on the line, and on running in to pick up a bunt and throw around the runner t first, unless the ball was very close to the mound.

I see no advantage to a left-hander playing third base. What you describe as "natural" requires extra time to make the throws compared to a right-hander. That extra turn and twist also applies to a throw to first after fielding a bunt.

Sorry but first base is the way to go for a lefty...or right field.

[Andy]

I thought of this thread the other night when I was at my 10 year old nephew's little league game. They had a left handed 3B and a kid tried to steal 3rd and the 3B caught the throw right over the foul line and the kid slid in easily. He might have been out had it been a right handed 3B.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Andy

I thought of this thread the other night when I was at my 10 year old nephew's little league game. They had a left handed 3B and a kid tried to steal 3rd and the 3B caught the throw right over the foul line and the kid slid in easily. He might have been out had it been a right handed 3B.

Maybe I'm mistaken but I don't think the "handedness" of the fielder determines where the catcher throws the ball to try and throw out a runner at a base. A right handed third baseman would have had the same difficulty if he caught the ball where it was thrown.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by italyprof

Disclaimer: I am left-handed, also, sucked at Little League baseball and was usually in RF.

I have always thought that a good athlete that was LH could play 3B with some advantages. If he (or she) cheated away from the line a step or two they could overcome the disdvantage in covering the whole between 3B and SS, while being naturally in the position to throw to second or to first after getting the ball. A slight advantage on the line, and on running in to pick up a bunt and throw around the runner t first, unless the ball was very close to the mound.

This is nonsense. It suggests to me that you don't understand how infielders play.

Moving away from the line to cover up 3B handedness, contrary to hitting charts, batter handedness and good defensive strategy is a far bigger disadvantage for a LH 3B. It compromises good defense.

The defensive priority of a 3B is to prevent hits to his right. Most hitters are RH. Balls hit over the bag are usually extra base hits, so they are more important than a ball hit into the hole. Covering the lines late in games is common. Balls hit to the left of 3B in a properly positioned infield will have the SS getting to most of them. Good 3B with range to the left are a bonus to the defense and by definition play closer to the line, because they can. I've seen Evan Longoria run around a ball hit up the line instead of backhanding it.

Any ball hit directly at or to the right of a 3B will be a far greater problem for a left hander. It is utter nonsense to suggest that a LH 3B can field a ball hit over the bag at third (or any more than a couple of steps to his right) and make the play at anywhere near the speed or accuracy of a RH 3B. I challenge anyone to go into their back yard and pantomime the footwork. It won't take 5 minutes to see the ridiculousness of the claim

On a bunt or dribbler down the LF line a LH 3B would be at a huge disadvantage. To barehand the ball they would have to run around it and plant both feet before throwing. A RH 3B can pick up the ball and throw on the run. A skill we have all seen. A bunt or dribbler hit further left would be an automatic hit unless the pitcher could get to it. Again I challenge anyone to visualize the steps of reaching for a ball hit towards you or slightly to the left with your bare left hand or your gloved right hand while running towards home plate or the 1B line and then make a reverse pivot to throw to first. You might have time to do it in a geezer league but not in any form of competitive baseball.

Bottom line: the opposition could bunt for hits all day.