New Leagues? - Page 4

Padreman · 03-08-2016, 11:33 PM

The Untold History of Black Baseball Players in Mexico

The Wolf · 03-08-2016, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antonin

I agree. Rating players from any of the Negro Leagues can't be more difficult than rating players from the end of the 19th century or early 20th century.

That's a complete falsehood. If you knew anything about the subject and about how little of the necessary data was recorded or preserved, then you would know that.

The Wolf · 03-08-2016, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigrod

We will one way or another..and for all the BS about whether it will be fictional or real...You're all wrong...
It'll be semi real or semi fictional. Call it either one and everyone will be right as some of the data is real and some not.
Bottom line is, it will be as good as humanly possible cause that's just the way we operate, like it or not.

It certainly won't be real. You can call it anything else. I know how much data is missing.

thehef · 03-09-2016, 01:44 AM

If only there was a thread with multiple posts from The Wolf letting us know over and over again how he feels about the accuracy of Negro League stats and their potential use in OOTP.....

Bigrod · 03-09-2016, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

If only there was a thread with multiple posts from The Wolf letting us know over and over again how he feels about the accuracy of Negro League stats and their potential use in OOTP.....

Definately a legend in his own mind

mitchkenn · 03-09-2016, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by padreman

the untold history of black baseball players in mexico

nice!!!!

Assos · 03-09-2016, 10:24 AM

Even with the data that is present, somehow someway myth and lore still finds away to blend into the box scores, a 2 run double might be a home run changed years later to build a case. Or how fast was a fastball when there was no one to compare it to. It is sad that there was a second class of baseball with great players that we will never be able to replay.

The Wolf · 03-09-2016, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assos

Even with the data that is present, somehow someway myth and lore still finds away to blend into the box scores, a 2 run double might be a home run changed years later to build a case. Or how fast was a fastball when there was no one to compare it to. It is sad that there was a second class of baseball with great players that we will never be able to replay.

And that is exactly the point. Some of the best players to ever play the game played in the Negro Leagues, but we will never know how good they actually were or what they really achieved. It's tragic.

But inventing something and passing it off as reality is the opposite of making it right.

The Wolf · 03-09-2016, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bigrod

Definately a legend in his own mind

You are familiar with the forum guidelines? I am, and I know better than to post a derogatory post like that. It's a shame that you never learned.

Padreman · 03-09-2016, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

And that is exactly the point. played in the Negro in the Negro leagues Leagues.

You sound like me now

Assos · 03-09-2016, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Padreman

You sound like me now

Not all were black......

Negro League Baseball Dot Com

Padreman · 03-09-2016, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Assos

Not all were black......

Negro League Baseball Dot Com

I was referring to his incoherent language

Spritze · 03-09-2016, 12:55 PM

Now that I have loaded a database with 4 different versions of negro league stats found on the internet or already in my possession I can report some actual numbers as far as completeness goes. This is raw data without any guesses applied.
1) Many players have no stats at all. That's about 25% of the players known to have existed. I'll just remove those from consideration. Using 3,897 players.
2) Of the 18,572 batting records available they are 98.5% complete
3) Of the 7,019 pitching records available they are nearly 100% complete
4) Of the 22,077 fielding records available they are 95% complete

I am amazed how complete the stats are that do exist. That said many players may have only a few years of their entire career covered. Since what we are building is not an encyclopedia but a particular set of skills attached to a player name who is then put into a game that takes him where it will this might work out OK. It is a better start than I was expectorating.

This database includes Negro League data from 4 sources, Cuban League data from 3 sources, Mexican League data from 1 source and Independent leagues data from 1 source.

David Watts · 03-09-2016, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Now that I have loaded a database with 4 different versions of negro league stats found on the internet or already in my possession I can report some actual numbers as far as completeness goes. This is raw data without any guesses applied.
1) Many players have no stats at all. That's about 25% of the players known to have existed. I'll just remove those from consideration.
2) Of the 11,000 batting records available they are 98.5% complete
3) Of the 4,000 pitching records available they are nearly 100% complete
4) Of the 22,000 fielding records available they are 95% complete

I am amazed how complete the stats are that do exist. That said many players may have only a few years of their entire career covered. Since what we are building is not an encyclopedia but a particular set of skills attached to a player name who is then put into a game that takes him where it will this might work out OK. It is a better start than I was expectorating.

This database includes Negro League data from 4 sources, Cuban League data from 3 sources, Mexican League data from 1 source and Independent leagues data from 1 source.

As to the bold, is that how the historical minor league players were modeled as well, or were there enough stats to create an encyclopedia? Just curious as to the whole process. Thanks.

Spritze · 03-09-2016, 01:49 PM

Minor League players are missing all the years they played in unaffiliated leagues so they are not encyclopedic either.

David Watts · 03-09-2016, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Minor League players are missing all the years they played in unaffiliated leagues so they are not encyclopedic either.

Thanks.

Assos · 03-09-2016, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Minor League players are missing all the years they played in unaffiliated leagues so they are not encyclopedic either.

So does that mean that if you start in year where they were not in an affiliated league that they would appear when they re-joined the following year in a affiliated team?

Spritze · 03-09-2016, 02:10 PM

Yes

The Wolf · 03-09-2016, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Now that I have loaded a database with 4 different versions of negro league stats found on the internet or already in my possession I can report some actual numbers as far as completeness goes. This is raw data without any guesses applied.
1) Many players have no stats at all. That's about 25% of the players known to have existed. I'll just remove those from consideration.
2) Of the 11,000 batting records available they are 98.5% complete
3) Of the 4,000 pitching records available they are nearly 100% complete
4) Of the 22,000 fielding records available they are 95% complete

I am amazed how complete the stats are that do exist. That said many players may have only a few years of their entire career covered. Since what we are building is not an encyclopedia but a particular set of skills attached to a player name who is then put into a game that takes him where it will this might work out OK. It is a better start than I was expectorating.

This database includes Negro League data froem 4 sources, Cuban League data from 3 sources, Mexican League data from 1 source and Independent leagues data from 1 source.

I don't believe you. There wasn't enough data recorded or preserved to get anywhere close to that.

What was it that was said by someone else upthread? A guess multiplied by a guess and divided by a guess is still a guess?

The Wolf · 03-09-2016, 03:04 PM

"Box scores are often ambiguous, even contradictory. Stolen bases, pitchers of record, strikeouts, and even at bats and extra base hits, were not always given and had to be estimated if possible. When did spring training end and the regular season begin? Was an inter-league series a playoff or not?

In the final analysis, the research comes down to dedicated but fallible human beings, all good at their jobs, all striving to do perfect work, all men and women of good will.

And all still disagreeing."

- John B Holway, SABR Researcher, on Negro Leagues research

I won't even mention the Negro Leagues for which ENTIRE YEARS of stats are lost.

03-08-2016, 11:33 PM	#61
Padreman Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2013 Location: Tijuana, Baja California, Mexico (formally San Diego, CA.) Posts: 4,138	The Untold History of Black Baseball Players in Mexico __________________ Chargers= Despicable Traitors

03-09-2016, 12:55 PM	#73
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Now that I have loaded a database with 4 different versions of negro league stats found on the internet or already in my possession I can report some actual numbers as far as completeness goes. This is raw data without any guesses applied. 1) Many players have no stats at all. That's about 25% of the players known to have existed. I'll just remove those from consideration. Using 3,897 players. 2) Of the 18,572 batting records available they are 98.5% complete 3) Of the 7,019 pitching records available they are nearly 100% complete 4) Of the 22,077 fielding records available they are 95% complete I am amazed how complete the stats are that do exist. That said many players may have only a few years of their entire career covered. Since what we are building is not an encyclopedia but a particular set of skills attached to a player name who is then put into a game that takes him where it will this might work out OK. It is a better start than I was expectorating. This database includes Negro League data from 4 sources, Cuban League data from 3 sources, Mexican League data from 1 source and Independent leagues data from 1 source. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it! Last edited by Spritze; 03-09-2016 at 10:25 PM.

03-09-2016, 01:49 PM	#75
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Minor League players are missing all the years they played in unaffiliated leagues so they are not encyclopedic either. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-09-2016, 02:10 PM	#78
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Yes __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-09-2016, 01:44 AM	#64
thehef Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,345	If only there was a thread with multiple posts from The Wolf letting us know over and over again how he feels about the accuracy of Negro League stats and their potential use in OOTP.....

03-09-2016, 10:24 AM	#67
Assos All Star Starter Join Date: May 2004 Location: Just on the fair side of the foul pole! Posts: 1,772	Even with the data that is present, somehow someway myth and lore still finds away to blend into the box scores, a 2 run double might be a home run changed years later to build a case. Or how fast was a fastball when there was no one to compare it to. It is sad that there was a second class of baseball with great players that we will never be able to replay.