What the heck?!? Is historical minors even playable? - Page 4

mitchkenn · 11-23-2016, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Contact LukasBerger to apply?

thanks. sent email query.

Le Grande Orange · 11-23-2016, 01:54 PM

More information on working agreements. This is from an article published in the Feb. 22, 1950, edition of The Sporting News, as part of a larger series looking at the operation of a ball club.

Quote:

It is true that the independent [minor league club] occasionally wins a pennant, but the majority go to the farm teams of the majors. Under normal circumstances, independent clubs just can't compete with those blessed with the opportunity of obtaining optioned players from higher up, plus the advantages on an elaborating scouting system.

Take, for example, the independent versus the farm club in a Class C league. The salary limit is an average of $200 a month per man. With no tie-up, the independent is obliged to field a flock of $200 players. On the other hand, the farm club can bring down a half dozen players from Class A, optioned under an arrangement whereby the C club has only half of each player's $300 salary charged against its limit.

That becomes a test of $200-a-month players against those drawing $250 or better a month, and it's not hard to figure who is likely to win in the end—both financially and in the more artistic realm of the league standings.

Quote:

There are three kinds of tie-ups between the majors and minors. The most successful and convincing, as far as championships are concerned, is outright ownership, whereby the parent major league club furnishes everything—money, players, field manager, and business manager. Since it's generally accepted that contenders whirl the turnstiles, it follows that the majors are going to load their top talent on their property.

The full working agreement is a simple and mutually-beneficial arrangement whereby major leaguers plant an entire squad at a home-owned club, and then harvest as many players as they desire at the end of the season. For this privilege, the lower-class club receives from $2,000 in Class D to approximately $5,000 in Class A, and on up to five figures in the higher brackets. Often the major's farm system selects its own manager, usually paying half his salary for the privilege.

The partial working agreement, third in the tie-ups, is usually a haphazard arrangement by which a club is sent from five to ten players. At the end of the season, the higher-class club is permitted to recall any or all of its players, and usually is given selection—or first refusal—of the remainder.

For example, let us suppose the Detroit Tigers option several players to Seattle, an independent organization, for 1950. At the close of the season, Seattle finds itself blessed with a major league prospect among its own players—a .440-hitting outfielder. After spirited bidding, the Giants offer $100,000 for "Old .440". Under the circumstances, the gentlemanly procedure for Seattle is to offer Detroit the player for $100,000. That's "first refusal."

Spritze · 11-23-2016, 02:55 PM

I am wondering if for 18 rather than limiting leagues to affiliated ones limit them to those as well as any that contain future and/or former mlb players?

That way all those players will have full careers and everyone else will gain fuller careers.

Adds 668 new league/years going back to 1901

mitchkenn · 11-23-2016, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I am wondering if for 18 rather than limiting leagues to affiliated ones limit them to those as well as any that contain future and/or former mlb players?

That way all those players will have full careers and everyone else will gain fuller careers.

i think that means a lot of teams who were "unaffiliated" or independant would be brought into the game, such as Rochster Bronchos of 1906 - who had 10 future Major Leagues on the team, such as Scoops Carey and Heinie Smith?

i hope that could happen. It's a good suggestion!!

thehef · 11-23-2016, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I am wondering if for 18 rather than limiting leagues to affiliated ones limit them to those as well as any that contain future and/or former mlb players?

That way all those players will have full careers and everyone else will gain fuller careers.

Sounds very cool. I think, however, you'd need to do an analysis (probably only you could do it) to determine what leagues that might be. As a guess, it seems like it would be a bunch - if not nearly all - of them. Although that wouldn't be a complaint.

For MiLB historical txns to work with that, then I'm guessing players who IRL moved to a team that isn't in OOTP would instead need to be made a free agent.

Spritze · 11-23-2016, 03:36 PM

There would still be about 1,000 unused year/leagues.

It adds 668 new League/years and all their teams and players starting in 1901.

mitchkenn · 11-23-2016, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

There would still be about 1,000 unused year/leagues.

It adds 668 new League/years and all their teams and players starting in 1901.

sounds incredible, if it comes to pass. Or as Paul McCartney said: "Let It Be"!!!

Lukas Berger · 11-23-2016, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Contact LukasBerger to apply?

Please do. Already got some good messages from some forum stalwarts who would all make excellent additions to the team!

I'll reply to each of you, though it may not be till next week as I'm taking it a bit easy over the holiday weekend

But anyone else who's interested please let me know as well.

I imagine we'll put out a more general call for new testers soon, but I'm going to have to talk the subject over with Markus, Andreas and Matt first so we can finalize just what we need out of the beta team going forward.

jpeters1734 · 11-25-2016, 12:01 AM

could someone tell me when last MLB team did not have an affiliate? I'll just start after that

ArcAngel · 11-25-2016, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

could someone tell me when last MLB team did not have an affiliate? I'll just start after that

According to bbref, Houston was without an Adv A affiliate, and Oakland was without an A affiliate, both occurring as recently as 2002. Prior to that year, it was apparently common for some MLB team to not have an affiliate at some level of AAA, AA, or A. SSA affiliations have always been "short" as I don't believe there has ever been a year in which all MLB teams at an SSA affiliation.

BigRed75 · 11-25-2016, 03:31 AM

I think he meant no affiliates at all.

I believe the answer to that is in fact 1931. Seems like it was discussed on the boards earlier this year.

mitchkenn · 11-25-2016, 08:25 AM

The last team to have any "affiliation" was the Phillies. In 1934 they took on Hazleton (A). So the last year without any was 1933 i believe. (at least according to bb reference). Now i haven't checked yet to see if everyone has affiliations every year since that date .... i did check up to 1938 and the Phillies didn't have an affiliate in 1937, but in 1938 they had 2, one in Montgomery (B) and another in Centreville (D) level.

here's a link to BB Reference and the minor league affiliations starting in 1919.
Minor League Affiliations | Baseball-Reference.com

Orcin · 11-25-2016, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

could someone tell me when last MLB team did not have an affiliate? I'll just start after that

But here's the problem... as soon as your team's AAA affiliate exchanges with another team's, you will have their prospects and they will have yours.

Spritze · 11-25-2016, 11:22 AM

I just tested this and did not find it to be so. Do you have a specific example I could test?

Lukas Berger · 11-25-2016, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I just tested this and did not find it to be so. Do you have a specific example I could test?

I've tried it as well and didn't find it to be the case either.

mitchkenn · 11-25-2016, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thehef

These affiliations that you setup within OOTP - rather than OOTP having read them from the csv file - would remain in place until you change them. Pretty sure, anyway.

just tested this, and you are absolutely correct. As a test - assigned WASH the Shreveport (Texas League) minors in 1922. In 1923 they still had it, but historically it was supposed to go to Phi A's in 1923. Phi A's still just had a reserve roster. Also checked to make certain the players were not duplicated on the teams. They weren't.

Orcin · 11-25-2016, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I just tested this and did not find it to be so. Do you have a specific example I could test?

No. I based my comment on what I have read. I will test this myself, but for now I stand corrected.

Orcin · 11-25-2016, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I just tested this and did not find it to be so. Do you have a specific example I could test?

I just tested it with the 1971 season. The Dixie Association (AA) went out of business after the 1971 season. All of the players on Dixie Association teams were released rather than moving to another team owned by their parent organization. I have league files to upload if you wish, but you could easily replicate this test.

Le Grande Orange · 11-25-2016, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin

I just tested it with the 1971 season. The Dixie Association (AA) went out of business after the 1971 season.

That's a bit of a unique case, however, in that the Dixie Association was a temporary one-year merger of the Southern and Texas Leagues. (And despite operating under a unified banner that year, each league still held its own All-Star Game, and the clubs part of each respective league were still subject to the rulings of their respective league president.)

Spritze · 11-25-2016, 07:23 PM

57% of the opening day Dixie Association players had been moved elsewhere by the AI before the end of the regular season. An additional 22% were moved before the next Texas and Southern League Seasons.

These movements had nothing to do with affiliations. Just the AI being the AI.

11-23-2016, 02:55 PM	#63
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	I am wondering if for 18 rather than limiting leagues to affiliated ones limit them to those as well as any that contain future and/or former mlb players? That way all those players will have full careers and everyone else will gain fuller careers. Adds 668 new league/years going back to 1901 __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it! Last edited by Spritze; 11-23-2016 at 03:32 PM.

11-23-2016, 03:36 PM	#66
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	There would still be about 1,000 unused year/leagues. It adds 668 new League/years and all their teams and players starting in 1901. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

11-25-2016, 12:01 AM	#69
jpeters1734 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Juust a bit outside... Posts: 6,292	could someone tell me when last MLB team did not have an affiliate? I'll just start after that __________________ "Cannonball Coming!" Go Bucs!! Founder and League Caretaker of the Professional Baseball Circuit, www.probaseballcircuit.com An Un-Official Guide to Minor League Management in OOTP 21 Ratings Scale Conversion Cross-Reference Cheat Sheet

11-25-2016, 03:31 AM	#71
BigRed75 Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 2,430	I think he meant no affiliates at all. I believe the answer to that is in fact 1931. Seems like it was discussed on the boards earlier this year. __________________ Mainline team SPTT team Was not a Snag fan...until I saw the fallout once he was gone and realized what a good job he was actually doing. - Ty Cobb

11-25-2016, 08:25 AM	#72
mitchkenn Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Oregon, not by design Posts: 2,872	The last team to have any "affiliation" was the Phillies. In 1934 they took on Hazleton (A). So the last year without any was 1933 i believe. (at least according to bb reference). Now i haven't checked yet to see if everyone has affiliations every year since that date .... i did check up to 1938 and the Phillies didn't have an affiliate in 1937, but in 1938 they had 2, one in Montgomery (B) and another in Centreville (D) level. here's a link to BB Reference and the minor league affiliations starting in 1919. Minor League Affiliations \| Baseball-Reference.com __________________ "This is my opening farewell " - Jackson Browne “They make a desolation and call it peace.” ― Agha Shahid Ali "Maybe she just has to sing, for the sake of the song - And who do I think that I am to decide that she's wrong." - Townes Van Zandt "I saw a young man leaning on his wooden crutch - He called out to me, 'Don't ask for so much' And a young woman leaning in her darkened door She cried out to me, 'Why not ask for more?' " - Leonard Cohen "Hello darkness, my old Friend ...." - Paul Simon Before Mays, before DiMaggio, there was Oscar Charleston. "All the lies about Babe Ruth are true." - Waite Hoyt Avatar is the late great Townes Van Zandt. rip.

11-25-2016, 11:22 AM	#74
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	I just tested this and did not find it to be so. Do you have a specific example I could test? __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

11-25-2016, 07:23 PM	#80
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	57% of the opening day Dixie Association players had been moved elsewhere by the AI before the end of the regular season. An additional 22% were moved before the next Texas and Southern League Seasons. These movements had nothing to do with affiliations. Just the AI being the AI. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!