Finally, the Cleveland Indians are done with Chief Wahoo

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by r0nster

the issue at hand is the Cleveland Indians current ownership failed to remember how the logo came to be and was created by a 17 year old in a contest and it had NOTHING to do with racism. It wasn't till the late 70s into the 80s did the liberals decide to take it up as a winning issue for their cause as we see today. I am plainly fed up with people making up stories and twisting any symbolism to their own ends and people buying into the false narrative.

Even if that story were true, it still doesn't mean the image isn't racist. It may mean the teen didn't have any racist intentions. But it still reflects the bigoted imagery that was common to the times. That's not a twist. The protests aren't about the artist, it is about the "art".

[RchW]

Originally Posted by r0nster

the issue at hand is the Cleveland Indians current ownership failed to remember how the logo came to be and was created by a 17 year old in a contest and it had NOTHING to do with racism. It wasn't till the late 70s into the 80s did the liberals decide to take it up as a winning issue for their cause as we see today. I am plainly fed up with people making up stories and twisting any symbolism to their own ends and people buying into the false narrative.

Unless you have a source I can't find, you obviously can't read. That makes your post false on its face.

No contest was held. In 1947 A 17-year old draftsman was assigned to draw the logo because his company was hired by Bill Veeck to do so.

It seems you should be fed up with yourself. What a joke.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chief_Wahoo

In 1947, Cleveland Indians owner Bill Veeck hired the J.F. Novak Company, designers of patches worn by the Cleveland police and fire departments, to create a new logo for his team. Seventeen-year-old draftsman Walter Goldbach, an employee of the Novak Company, was asked to perform the job.[5][6] Tasked with creating a mascot that "would convey a spirit of pure joy and unbridled enthusiasm", he created a smiling face with yellow skin and a prominent nose.[6] Goldbach has said that he had difficulty "figuring out how to make an Indian look like a cartoon",[6][7] and that he was probably influenced by the cartoon style that was popular at the time.[8]

[r0nster]

woohoo someone actually read GOOD JOB RCHW. and nice catch as I had wondered if anyone would. I applaud you on that but the point still remains as you have read the link NO RACISM period. Case closed as they say as ZERO proof (or for that matter evidence) of it being racist.
Again I applaud you RCHW ... with political issues like this I like to stick something a bit off just to see if someone were to actually read and look things up. You have restored a bit my faith in people actually looking things up as 95% of the people don't. Thanks again

[RchW]

Originally Posted by r0nster

woohoo someone actually read GOOD JOB RCHW. and nice catch as I had wondered if anyone would. I applaud you on that but the point still remains as you have read the link NO RACISM period. Case closed as they say as ZERO proof (or for that matter evidence) of it being racist.
Again I applaud you RCHW ... with political issues like this I like to stick something a bit off just to see if someone were to actually read and look things up. You have restored a bit my faith in people actually looking things up as 95% of the people don't. Thanks again

I'd call you something that would get me banned. You're not worth it. Get lost.

[r0nster]

I compliment you (as in something positive) on something and you insult me in return ... that certainly says something about your character. Thanks for showing your lack of appreciation. I could return the favor of insults easily enough as you have shown your lack of character traits. I will just offer you the other cheek.

[msupoke]

Just because it was not intentionally racist does not make it ok. I have heard people use racist language just because that is how they learned to speak, but it is still racist language. A drawing based on racial stereotypes is a racist image, regardless of the intent.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by RchW

I'd call you something that would get me banned. You're not worth it. Get lost.

Save it for he next time I speak in OTD. It will be cathartic.

[MorseMoose]

No more racist caps!!

[r0nster]

I love how you call that logo racist LOL.... Comedians ALL ... trying to make something out of nothing .people like that decades ago were often called blind fools

[MorseMoose]

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by r0nster

I love how you call that logo racist LOL.... Comedians ALL ... trying to make something out of nothing .people like that decades ago were often called blind fools

I am a 65-year-old white Caucasian male. I believe the nearest Native American to where I live is about 32 miles east of here, on an "Indian Reservation" that I have never visited.

In spite of this, I am certain that if I traveled there, showed them a picture of Chief Wahoo, and asked them whether they think it's racist, I would get a unanimous "Yes" because it makes their people appear to look foolish in the eyes of people like me.

That makes the logo racist.

Now, sir, you will rebut, I am sure. Stick to your narrow viewpoint if you will but do not take my silence hereafter to be assent or surrender. I don't have the inclination to repeat myself in fruitless argument with "blind fools." I have said what I have to say and that is enough.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

I am a 65-year-old white Caucasian male. I believe the nearest Native American to where I live is about 32 miles east of here, on an "Indian Reservation" that I have never visited.

In spite of this, I am certain that if I traveled there, showed them a picture of Chief Wahoo, and asked them whether they think it's racist, I would get a unanimous "Yes" because it makes their people appear to look foolish in the eyes of people like me.

That makes the logo racist.

Now, sir, you will rebut, I am sure. Stick to your narrow viewpoint if you will but do not take my silence hereafter to be assent or surrender. I don't have the inclination to repeat myself in fruitless argument with "blind fools." I have said what I have to say and that is enough.

It can be insulting to many, I agree. Similar to the fighting Irish logo of that little idiot with his fists up. Being insulted or having a less than favorable, comical depiction is not always automatically racist. Some people can deal with it, others can't. But it's gotten to the point where every perceived slight is racist.

[Westheim]

You can't go anymore by who might be insulted. Most people are routinely insulted these days. Not because X concerns them, but because it MIGHT concern somebody else, and how dare anybody - … ah...

I never considered Chief Wahoo an insult. I found him more on the funny side. That plain C is just boring to the n-th degree.

Then again, given how they looked in that ALDS, the Cleveland Plain C's might actually be a good name for them….

[Cobra Mgr]

I like to listen to music at work. If I get a tune in my head, I start to whistle. Sometimes subconsciously. I had a coworker who somehow thought whistling was an attack of some kind. She would drag other coworkers to come complain about my whistling. They actually didn't care, but they cowardly gave in anyway to her bullying. She evidently had misophonia.

Now I had every right to assert my right to whistle. Her annoyance at my benign action was her problem and she needed professional help. But do I really have to whistle? Is it going to take that much of my essence to just hum? So I just apologized and obliged to the best I could (Again, sometimes I do it subconsciously.) We became friends & keep in touch on FB.

Why cause a problem for someone else needlessly if it is within you to avoid it? Why offend somebody when you have other avenues to do what you want without getting them upset?

That's the whole point with this controversy. Whoever came up w/Seminoles, Redskins, Indians etc may have had no intention of insulting anyone. They may have even been a misguided attempt to honor someone. Some in the group may be offended, some not. Either way, why not just avoid giving needless offense? Apologize, do something else, and keep more people happy.

Don't get me wrong, there will always be folks upset about something. But if you're a businessman & see a significant portion of potential customers avoid your product because of a name or picture, why not come up with something that expands your target? It's plain silly to stubbornly hold your ground on something so trivial, especially when a name change would likely cause fans who already own your products to purchase more items just to stay up to date.

[psd]

I am Native American. I have Cree (verified) and Navajo (possibly, NOT verified yet) blood in my veins. I personally have no issue with the logo. But I appreciate the fact that some DO. It's about a 50/50 yes/no vote when I asked other NA. That's a large enough vote to make it changeable. Change it to something that offends virtually no -one, as Cobra pointed out. I admit it is hard to do in this day and age. I fully believe some people just can't seem to find anything else to do with themselves than be "offended" at every little thing. But they are a very small minority in my experiences. You will never make 100% of the people happy 100% of the time. But you CAN make 95% of the people happy most of the time, I believe. Some people are just never happy. But why not try to change things if you can to something that won't offend so many.

I just wanted to add one thing. One thing I can't stand is when something has been around for decades, and NOW it's offensive. I find that infuriating. But I also understand the world has changed. It blows, but it is what it is. A lot of "offensive" things lately have been much ado about a big pile of nothing, IMO. Statues that people walk by EVERY day for years, and all of a sudden it's offensive. Or a named street. Or whatever. But it's how things are nowadays. Hopefully it changes to something a little more level headed in the near future. IOW. Save the outrage and offense for things that truly deserve it. Like "Redskins". Holy crap I can't understand why Dan Snyder refuses so steadfastly to change it. But other stuff. Like when someone says something that someone just has to find offensive, but it wasn't intended that way. Jesus, let it go. People are losing their JOBS over ridiculous crap. Especially when it was YEARS ago. Holy crap it makes my head explode. I know a lot of people think intent doesn't matter. Only outcomes. But I think that is seriously flawed thinking. Intent SHOULD matter. It does in a court of law, doesn't it?

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by psd

...I just wanted to add one thing. One thing I can't stand is when something has been around for decades, and NOW it's offensive. I find that infuriating. But I also understand the world has changed...

Yes, the world has changed.

Decades ago, minorities were offended by certain things, but said nothing, or simply grinned and moved on, because most white folks simply would not listen.Those things were always offensive, but "troublemakers" or those labeled "uppity" would find themselves unemployed or worse. (I'm sure nobody here would bother to read my accounts of conversations I overheard among my elders while growing up)

Consider the reaction here in the US during the 1950s when black folks got tired of being 3rd class citizens and started protesting. Protests did not begin in the 50s, but the modern civil rights movement began then, and continues to this day.

Consider the reaction back in the 50s: violence. By "law enforcement" and by private citizens. The reaction to peaceful protests was massive violence. The reaction in the 60s,when blacks began to turn to armed self-defense (the Black Panther Party) was even more violence.

The world has changed in some ways. It's wrong for white folks to think that they own the entire planet and can label and classify everybody else any way and any time they please. It's just wrong, and now, more and more minorities are standing up and saying so. Thankfully, more white folks--but still not enough--are agreeing.

It's wrong to assume that the sanitized version of history that the US and other Western countries teach their children should be allowed to go unchallenged. I wonder how many Americans who celebrated Columbus Day recently have read "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies," written in 1542 by Bartolome de las Casas. And I wonder how many of those who lament the removal of Confederate statues have read "Bullwhip Days," a compilation of remembrances of former slaves.

[psd]

Originally Posted by Antonin

Yes, the world has changed.

Decades ago, minorities were offended by certain things, but said nothing, or simply grinned and moved on, because most white folks simply would not listen.Those things were always offensive, but "troublemakers" or those labeled "uppity" would find themselves unemployed or worse. (I'm sure nobody here would bother to read my accounts of conversations I overheard among my elders while growing up)

Consider the reaction here in the US during the 1950s when black folks got tired of being 3rd class citizens and started protesting. Protests did not begin in the 50s, but the modern civil rights movement began then, and continues to this day.

Consider the reaction back in the 50s: violence. By "law enforcement" and by private citizens. The reaction to peaceful protests was massive violence. The reaction in the 60s,when blacks began to turn to armed self-defense (the Black Panther Party) was even more violence.

The world has changed in some ways. It's wrong for white folks to think that they own the entire planet and can label and classify everybody else any way and any time they please. It's just wrong, and now, more and more minorities are standing up and saying so. Thankfully, more white folks--but still not enough--are agreeing.

It's wrong to assume that the sanitized version of history that the US and other Western countries teach their children should be allowed to go unchallenged. I wonder how many Americans who celebrated Columbus Day recently have read "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies," written in 1542 by Bartolome de las Casas. And I wonder how many of those who lament the removal of Confederate statues have read "Bullwhip Days," a compilation of remembrances of former slaves.

Did you bother to read the rest of what i wrote, or just the first sentence? Explain to me why something that didn't bother you years ago, or weeks ago, or even yesterday, does today. I understand some things may have been complained about for a long time, on deaf ears. I'm not talking about those things. I'm talking specifically about things that people are upset about and want changed, because of something the person did or said DECADES ago. Especially when they have been dead for a while. And no one says a word about it until now. You don't know that they wouldn't have changed their minds or stance on things. I have. Im 54. People change. The world changes. Not everyone does, I understand that. Cultures are different. Times are different. How can you blame someone for something they did that was ACCEPTABLE to the public at the time they did it?? I understand now it wouldn't be. But unless they are saying the same crap NOW, just let it go, for crying out loud. Everybody says or does things they regret. Everyone. How about we judge a person based on their overall body of work instead of focusing on ONE negative statement or action? Then decide whether to rename the street or remove the statue.

[r0nster]

Cincinnati REDS Florida state SEMINOLES Washington REDSKINS .... Chicago BLACKHAWKS...Atlanta braves... Cleveland indians... kansas city CHIEFS... central Michigan CHIPPEWA... there are more .... Point is stop being hypocritical and be consistent I dont feel sorry one bit for people like this when it is well known it is NOT anything racial or insulting.... case in point a college program named themselves the fighting whites.... was I offended NOPE. I was actually happy we finally got a name after all these years .... please be consistant since no logic from many of you and of you who do admit it wasn't insulting until bozos tried to turn it into something as I could turn many things into a racial component or some form of insults..... please take a long look at yourself before buying into a LIE and or scam

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Antonin

The world has changed in some ways. It's wrong for white folks to think that they own the entire planet and can label and classify everybody else any way and any time they please.

Are you seriously suggesting that such attitudes are limited to 'white folks'? Good lord, read some history. Humanity has a very long track record of dividing itself into groups and having not-so-pleasant reactions to those not in the group. Need I start citing examples?

Originally Posted by Antonin

It's just wrong, and now, more and more minorities are standing up and saying so. Thankfully, more white folks--but still not enough--are agreeing.

The United States is not the world. The nature of race relations in the United States does not automatically reflect the state of race relations in other nations. Do not project the particulars of the U.S.A. onto other countries.

Originally Posted by Antonin

It's wrong to assume that the sanitized version of history that the US and other Western countries teach their children should be allowed to go unchallenged.

And the histories of other non-Western nations are pure and noble, are without crimes, and haven't been "sanitized"?

Originally Posted by Antonin

I wonder how many Americans who celebrated Columbus Day recently have read "A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies," written in 1542 by Bartolome de las Casas. And I wonder how many of those who lament the removal of Confederate statues have read "Bullwhip Days," a compilation of remembrances of former slaves.

I wonder how many Americans have read about the Rape of Nanking, Unit 731, the Khmer Rouge. I wonder how many know that the slave trade in Africa involved blacks of one tribe selling the captured members of other tribes to Europeans, or the Barbary slave trade. Or how it was the British Empire which put a great deal of effort into stamping out the slave trade, attempting to end a practice which human societies around the world—and of all races—has seen as entirely normal for millennia.

[statfreak]

Originally Posted by r0nster

Cincinnati REDS

to be fair to Cincinnati, the Reds are short for Red Stockings and have nothing to do with race or anything other than socks.