2025 Detroit Tigers: We sure do love bargain bin pitchers!

[Westheim]

You can't win the division in May, but you can sure lose it...!

[knightdreamer2k]

Originally Posted by Westheim

You can't win the division in May, but you can sure lose it...!

This is true. I watched yesterday's game and they were struggling with risp. They started badly last year, but this year they had higher hopes and wanted to build on the late success from last year.

[cephasjames]

An article on MLive about three ways to view the season so far. Which is your view?

Optimistic: Chill out. It’s way too early to panic.

Pessimistic: Put the lid on the excuses. This team is awful.

Realistic: Let’s see how this plays out.

Even though I lean pessimistic by nature, I think I fall under realistic. I don't think they will get the 87 wins they were predicted to reach, but I also don't think their season is done. I think they have some good baseball in them and they'll have some very fun stretches to watch.

[CONN CHRIS]

Fifteen straight games against Cleveland and Minnesota (including a stretch of nine in a row at home) start tonight. Skubal is on the mound this evening and Manning is rumored to be the possible starter Saturday.

If they are going to climb back into this division, it's now or next year.

[cephasjames]

Wow! Hadn't noticed that. Yeah, this is a great opportunity to either climb back up into the division or to be buried for the year.

[CONN CHRIS]

5 great innings from Skubal and then he is hit with a line drive and has to leave. Vest is on the IL now. Even Hinch was out with a medical issue last night.

Good grief

[Hrycaj]

How long before we hear that the minor injury to Casey Mize is going to result in major surgery?

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

How long before we hear that the minor injury to Casey Mize is going to result in major surgery?

... in 4, 3, 2 ...

ERod was injured as well. Miggy tweeted at Bartolo Colon over the weekend that Detroit needs a starter. I doubt that he was even half-joking. Vest is on the Covid list as well.

Brieske is starting tonight, Faedo pitched well last night (two guys that were not supposed to be anywhere near the MLB roster this year.

ERod is supposed to start tomorrow night but that isn't happening. No scheduled starter yet for Wed night which is supposed to be Skubal's next start.

Past Faedo and Brieske who aren't supposed to be in Detroit, I have no idea who will be starting for them this week.

And not to be forgotten, Austin Meadows is suffering from a bout with vertigo.

This team has been utterly decimated with injuries.

[CONN CHRIS]

They started the other ERod (Elvin) [who also should not be on the MLB roster] who gave up four runs. The bullpen kept them in it until it didn't. Following this team is starting to wear on me. :-)

[CONN CHRIS]

It looks like the rotation at this time is:

Skubal [assuming he doesn't go on the IL which is a question mark]
Brieske [Who should be in the minors]
Faedo [See Brieske]
Elvin Rodriguez [see Faedo]
Pick 'em


Miggy's tweet to Bartolo Colon is looking like a valid option!

[Hrycaj]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

It looks like the rotation at this time is:

Skubal [assuming he doesn't go on the IL which is a question mark]
Brieske [Who should be in the minors]
Faedo [See Brieske]
Elvin Rodriguez [see Faedo]
Pick 'em


Miggy's tweet to Bartolo Colon is looking like a valid option!

Maybe they will find someone at Tigers fantasy camp??

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Hrycaj

Maybe they will find someone at Tigers fantasy camp??

Get your glove, let's go!

[CONN CHRIS]

Well, if you can't win with a minor league pitcher giving up only 2 runs and a cobbled-together bullpen providing 4 scoreless innings, I suppose that you can't expect to win any of them.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Well, if you can't win with a minor league pitcher giving up only 2 runs and a cobbled-together bullpen providing 4 scoreless innings, I suppose that you can't expect to win any of them.

The Mets scored 12 last night and still found a way to lose horribly. Sometimes baseball really doesn't love you.

Yesterday I browsed baseball-reference and saw that Miguel Cabrera, age 39, is by far the best offensive player on the team.

He was also worth precisely zero WAR.

That has all the makings of "definitely not this year, and not next year either, or as long as you live".....

[Hrycaj]

Walk Off!

[CONN CHRIS]

Maybe we need a whole team of fun forty-year-old fat guys!

[cephasjames]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Maybe we need a whole team of fun forty-year-old fat guys!

I fit both of those descriptions! Sign me up!

[Hrycaj]

This is long. Just needed to vent.

I was in a friendly debate with a couple of friends that are also big Tigers fans. One wants Avila gone because of how bad he bungled the trades of JV, Castellanos and not trading Boyd and Fulmer at peak value. The other for his drafting of arms. I feel both friends have a bit of revisionist history going here but overall I think his idea of what you can actually get back in a real MLB trade is flawed. I also think that the Tigers have not simply drafted arms and the picks they have made have not been awful. The trade guy uses two primary pieces of evidence to make his point. They are Dave Dombrowski and Chris Sale. He felt that Dave just swindled other teams and Al is a bumbling idiot. However, what I think he is missing is how trades actually work at the MLB level. Essentially you are trading a known for an unknown. D.D. was trading for known MLB talent and giving up prospect (lottery tickets) in return. D.D. looks like he did a great job in that arena because none of those prospects really ever developed enough to bite him in the rear. Al never had that opportunity. He was trading his known players away for these unknown lottery tickets. This is so much harder to do. This is where my friend loves to bring up the Chris Sale deal. When you look at it though, I do not think that is not a good example to use.

White Sox Received:

Yoan Moncada (#1 baseball prospect at the time)
Michael Kopech (as high as #32 in Baseball America and #10 in MLB Pipeline)
Luis Basabe (True lottery ticket outfielder with a ceiling as maybe a #4 on the depth chart)
Victor Diaz (Lottery ticket, but more of a scratch off type. Throw in essentially)

Red Sox Received:

Chris Sale and 3 years of control

If you look at the stats and I have read enough articles on the deal that in the end statistically over the long term this deal is considered even to slightly in Chicago's favor. I disagree with this assessment simply because the Red Sox used Sale to win a World Series and the Moncada has been nothing but a strikeout, no walk machine (sound familiar Javy Baez?) in Chicago. With Kopech the jury is still out. The point is to win the World Series and Boston did that and Moncada has easily proven that he is not the building block the team could build around. In fact I think he should have used the Adam Eaton for Giolito trade as his example but I wasn't interested in making the guys argument for him.

I also like to remind my friend that at no point did Al have a player of Chris Sale's magnitude with 3 years of team control to get such a package. Am I saying that the unknown for the known never works out? Of course not but the pendulum more often than not swings toward the team that gets the known commodity. So I have a hard time crucifying Avila for his trades.

Then you look at my other friend that wants to talk the drafting of arms over everything. Is that true though?

Al Avila’s first year as GM was in 2015. In that draft the Tigers selected 22nd overall and had a comp pick at #34. With their first selection they took RHP Beau Burrows. Burrows obviously did not work out. Notable position player taken after Burrows would be Ke’Bryan Hayes who was taken in the comp round by the Pirates two picks before the Tigers took OF Christin Stewart. If the argument is that the Tigers should have taken Hayes in the first round then they are as guilty as pretty much the rest of the league that passed on him as well. Hard to find a clear crystal ball outside of video game baseball. I would also argue that the Tigers were not in a rebuild yet either as their draft position would indicate.

So does 2016 begin the rebuild? They picked 9th that year and went with RHP Matt Manning. Jury is still out on Manning but I think the criticism is about picking arms and not bats. So who was picked after Manning that Avila missed on. In the first they could have selected the following Zach Collins, Kyle Lewis or Alex Kirilloff. None of those guys are really lighting it up yet. In the comp round Will Smith and Dylan Carlson were drafted. In round 2 Bryan Reynolds, Pete Alonso and Bo Bichette were selected. Corbin Burnes and Shane Bieber went in the 4th round. If we are going to flame Avila here then sharpen your pitchforks for every other GM in the league because the 2016 first round class has done next to nothing in the league to date.

Let's move onto 2017 where the Tigers drafted at #18. RHP Alex Faedo was the pick. Position players of note taken after Faedo……..exactly. Jeter Downs is a name you may know but he was a comp pick that year.

2018 which many consider the real start of the rebuild. The Tigers took Mize 1st overall. Who went after? Joey Bart, Alec Bohm, Nick Mandigral, Jonathan India, Jarred Kelenic. In this order actually. So with our revisionist history goggles on, India has been the best of that group. So would people be making a case that India should have been first overall instead of Mize? At the time Mize was the consensus top pick. Even with India’s current success I’m still not sure any team in the Tigers position would have taken anyone other than Mize here.

In 2019 the Tigers drafted pitcher…..oh wait! That can’t be right, it says that OF Riley Greene was drafted 5th overall by the Tigers. But the rebuild was around starting pitchers right??

I’ll save the sarcasm and just say the Tigers took Spencer Torkelson 1st overall in 2020 and point out that he is also not a pitcher.

This takes up to the controversial 2021 pick of RHP Jackson Jobe. I’ll admit I was a Mayer fan who went to the Sox in the very next pick. I will also admit that an 18 year old SS carries plenty of risk itself. It is just plain too early to make a final verdict on this one. However, can we argue that Jobe is not part of this rebuild? You won’t see him for 5 years easily. Isn’t this team supposed to be in contention before that?

It probably sounds like I'm an Avila apologist here. I am not. I would fire him immediately for this reason. He has failed as a GM to put the right people around the players. This organization does not develop talent. We never seem to unearth hidden gems and this team plays without any real drive. To me this is the real problem in the organization and why they need to take a blowtorch to it. Unfortunately, you can't fire owners because that is really where it should start. It was good debate and a lot of adult beverages were consumed having it. I thought I would post here because I'm curious what other Tigers fans think.

[cephasjames]

I think I pretty much agree with you. In my mind, getting good/great pitchers is harder than getting good/great batters. So drafting more pitchers with that potential makes sense to me.

[CONN CHRIS]

I am fine with the way Avilla has drafted. I think the team does lack spark but maybe it's hard to motivate a team that has had such an injury-depleted pitching staff that Miggy is joking / not joking a tweet to Bartolo Colon for help.

I am patient to a fault perhaps. Decades of rooting for an 'also ran' tends to do that to a fan I suppose.