Latest Info (3/28/20)

[jimmysthebestcop]

Just very the little progress OOTPb has made since OOTP 18 I would have huge doubts about this Football project. This is exactly the sort of project that should have been Kickstarter. OOTP as a game company is nearly as big as some of the huge companies that run kickstarters. The Pathfinder Kingmaker guys that game probably out sold a decade worth of OOTP combined. Battletech from Hairbraiend Schemes and produced by Paradox. That's the Shadow Run guys and Paradox what they sell a million copies of their big titles.

Not only does kickstarter get you funds to either hire full/part/contractor help but gets the buzz going. OOTP flies too under the radar in video game land. The aforementioned Motorsport Manager is 4 years old in the fall it still gets the same daily steam users as OOTP 21 does.

I never even played the Patherfinder but I backed their sequel that raised over 2 million because I follow the Trese Bros and I backed their game.A much smaller title. But they crossed posted each others games and many fans backed both without ever playing a game from the other company. Rock Paper Shotgun covered the Trese Bros kickstarter and it generated huge buzz in the Indy scene they are only 2 bros after all. Yes it does take a lot of work to run a kickstarter but its rewards when done right are huge boons to the game.

Just think Football Manager gets over 100k users per day. I'm not even sure if OOTPb sold 25k copies. It is relatively unknown still especially in the larger gaming community.

OOTPb has almost zero youtube and twitch fan content creators. Quuill18 is doing a current series of Motosport Manager (yeah 4 years old) he is getting over 10k views per video and he is almost on episode 40. If you add up all the OOTPb videos ever and combined them, they probably don't have 10k views combined. Motorsport Manager in its prime had hundreds of thousands video views.

And video game content creators drive the consumer market. But no one knows about OOTPb. They split their user base between Steam and stand alone and bottom line it hurts sales numbers in terms of shear quantity. And those numbers are how many content creators pick which games to showcase.

A successful kickstarter campaign is the gift that keeps on giving when successful run. It continues to generate buzz and get attention from fans and online media.

I've never even heard of FOF and I'm a gamer. Dozens of new game each year. I only stumbled onto the forum because of OOTP.

In my opinion OOTP doesn't do a good job showcasing their work to the video game market. They go after sports fan who love the sport and are casual players. Maybe an OOTP game is the only game they have ever played. And now perfect team helps bring in the daily/weekly fantasy gamblers. But those segments don;t drive the market. Real gamers do and OOTP ignores that entire segment.

I now have zero faith in OOTPb ever improving as a video game and severely doubt any new "game" project they take on. FOF is a gigantic longshot at this point.

[lhaase9]

I also would help fund a speedier development of this game, either through a GoFundMe page or as a direct investment. Let me know how I can help. This game will be one-of-a-kind on the market, and I'm eager to get it out there! Thanks

[nbryant]

I'm confused so school an old man. How would a gofundme page help here if what is needed is for the OOTP graphics team to modify their format around the FOF code? Markus still needs to release them so they can dedicate their time and energy. I don't think anyone thinks it's a manner of money slowing them down, more the resources are dedicated to other functions.

[james17]

Originally Posted by nbryant

I'm confused so school an old man. How would a gofundme page help here if what is needed is for the OOTP graphics team to modify their format around the FOF code? Markus still needs to release them so they can dedicate their time and energy. I don't think anyone thinks it's a manner of money slowing them down, more the resources are dedicated to other functions.

That is the number one problem. Unless and until Markus gives Jim the interface resources we'll be stuck in program development limbo.

Pretty sad.

[Another Mike D]

So glad we have incremental changes in OOTP and a silly baseball card game instead of what was promised of a football game.

Jim would be better off abandoning OOTP and just giving his community % of the sales to work on the UI and design (we've seen some good mods). It may not be quite as good, but it would actually exist.

[Zeppelin462]

I've been getting back into the Wolverine games, particularly basketball. The basketball games are MUCH stronger than the football, in my opinion, probably due being a thing for a longer period of time, but it's getting me back into the football side of the house too.

I feel like Wolverine is the way to go, and I've pretty much fully accepted that. They have work to do on their forums and number of improvements to their current games post-release, but they just seem more reliable.

[james17]

I dunno...I tried Wolverine pro football and while it has much that is good, it never quite 'captured' me the way FOF8 does.

[jimmysthebestcop]

I either need a management sim game to be as deep as football manager or as fun/entertaining as Motorsport Manager. If not it's a pass for me now. I don't even care what sport it is anymore as long as the game meets my standards then I'll learn the sport. I don't know 1 thing about European Football/US Soccer or the racing world. Didn't stop me from loving the games.

While the 4 major american sports are my favorites a lot of the sim/management games honestly just don't look fun or entertaining as video games. I can care less about setting up my own fictional or historical or all time great games. Or just lining up players to get results.

I've heard of the Wolverine games but I just don't know if they are fun. None of the American sports management games get any sort of creator content. They are non existent on youtube and twitch. Almost no one knows of them or covers them. The Wolverine games only look to have about 50 Steam users all time the daily count is a handful or 2.

Draft Day Sports: College Basketball 2020 all time daily peak was 49 users. The game is $35. You can get a AAAA quality game or maybe a Tier 1 AAA game for that price.

[progen]

Hey Jimmy. Recently, Wolverine's 14th anniversary sale was on, where all games were $14. I've played all their games, college & pro, and bought their Pro Football game on sale. It's a good game, if you don't expect it to be like OOTP21, which has spoiled us all.

Still work to do, but that always seems to be the case with any developer. And Gary and his team are always responsive, and seem to consider suggestions from their customer base.

And being an avid soccer fan(Manchester United-Premier League), and La Liga and Bundesliga, not the MLS, I've played the heck out of Football Manager, and also have Motorsports Manager as one of my many games on Steam. I'm all over the place with sim sports games, playing all four major sports in the US, as well as racing, horse racing, soccer, boxing, but I always find myself coming back(or never leaving), OOTP baseball. Just my two cents, which probably is only worth a penny.

[QuikSand]

Everything about this thread is frustrating.

The FOF community is just -aching- for a new installment. It really seemed like good news to get a development/marketing "team" behind a former solo developer who seemed like he would really benefit from that. Given where we are now (where is that again?) I'm not so sure any longer.

And for those of us who would be delighted to fiddle around with a different well-done football management sim... the alternatives are just...paltry. If you like Football Mogul at its skin-deep level, then it seems like there are lots of options to play games where a player's entire skill set is encapsulated in a set of ratings like 7-4-6-6. With no realistic cap management, gameplanning, career arc, etc. But, in a world where Football Manager (soccer) is a monstrous international industry, there is literally NO space for a second player to get in with a legitimately serious game like this? It's just jarring.

Alas...that's apparently where we are.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by QuikSand

Everything about this thread is frustrating.

The FOF community is just -aching- for a new installment. It really seemed like good news to get a development/marketing "team" behind a former solo developer who seemed like he would really benefit from that. Given where we are now (where is that again?) I'm not so sure any longer.

And for those of us who would be delighted to fiddle around with a different well-done football management sim... the alternatives are just...paltry. If you like Football Mogul at its skin-deep level, then it seems like there are lots of options to play games where a player's entire skill set is encapsulated in a set of ratings like 7-4-6-6. With no realistic cap management, gameplanning, career arc, etc. But, in a world where Football Manager (soccer) is a monstrous international industry, there is literally NO space for a second player to get in with a legitimately serious game like this? It's just jarring.

Alas...that's apparently where we are.

I think there could possibly be space for a second develop on the scene. But they would either need to be partnered with a pretty big publisher if not a AAA publisher then a big AAAA publisher. Paradox or say Deep Silver would be publishers that are in the AAAA world.

And even then a lot of the AAAA game titles still go through the entire Kickstarter process. I can't stress how important it is for modern games. It just generates so much buzz.

Or the game devs would need a really good PR firm. A small indy dev the Trese Bros, which is basically a 2 man shop, has a very good PR outsource firm. Their games get covered by all the Indy media. Of course they do Kickstarter. They even got to showcase their game off at the Kickstarter booth at the last Pax that happened right before covid shut everything down.

Most of these larger games also either use Steam exclusively or have jumped ship to Epic to ride that bandwagon. That depends on the publishing house.

Think about it the Kickstarter lasts the entire time the game is in development maybe 2 or 3 years for a smaller title. The publishers and PR along with Kickstarter try to create a steady wave of buzz that builds until release. Exclusive alpha, open betas then Early Access.

All of these mechanics helps push sales and since the majority is kickstarter the funds come up front to the devs. Then more up from once the game hits early access.

This is how the modern Indy game gets released these days. It does feel like OOTP is either not on board the modern video game bandwagon or maybe never was in the first place.

Look how good Motorsport Manager did. Small devs that only were in the mobile game area but they had Sega as their publisher.

FOF was probably the wrong game at the wrong time for OOTP. I remember posting on here in 2018. And then it was 2 years late. Now its like 4 years late.

[highandoutside]

I love what Markus has done at OOTP. He has taken my 41 year hobby to a place I never imagined. If he doesn't have time to do a football sim, I understand.

In that case, however, I wonder if he'd be willing to release Jim and allow him to partner up with a company like Wolverine Studios. Gary's game has just enough graphics to get things started, and his college and pro football games would greatly benefit from the depth of FOF's statistical/roster management engine. (Of course Jim and Gary would have to be on board with this, I'm just highlighting the idea that their are other enterprising game developers who might be able to give FOF the time and UI it deserves.)

[Robmeister89]

Originally Posted by highandoutside

I love what Markus has done at OOTP. He has taken my 41 year hobby to a place I never imagined. If he doesn't have time to do a football sim, I understand.

In that case, however, I wonder if he'd be willing to release Jim and allow him to partner up with a company like Wolverine Studios. Gary's game has just enough graphics to get things started, and his college and pro football games would greatly benefit from the depth of FOF's statistical/roster management engine. (Of course Jim and Gary would have to be on board with this, I'm just highlighting the idea that their are other enterprising game developers who might be able to give FOF the time and UI it deserves.)

Gary has a football guy already. That's how he was able to add football to WS games.

[Scipio Africanus]

All I know is I've been waiting for 20+ years for a game to fill the Front Page Sports Football void and I'll probably go to my grave still waiting. My experience on sports forums over the past two decades would indicate that tons of people want a pro football game that treats the off-the field and on-the-field game with equal importance but no developer wants to make a game like that.

[redfox000]

Originally Posted by Robmeister89

Gary has a football guy already. That's how he was able to add football to WS games.

Correct, he basically did this already except with a different indie football game developer that was swallowed up by Wolverine.

[redfox000]

Originally Posted by Scipio Africanus

All I know is I've been waiting for 20+ years for a game to fill the Front Page Sports Football void and I'll probably go to my grave still waiting. My experience on sports forums over the past two decades would indicate that tons of people want a pro football game that treats the off-the field and on-the-field game with equal importance but no developer wants to make a game like that.

This exactly! No game, sports or otherwise, has filled me with the excitement level and game time played than the FPS series. I wish to this day that someone somewhere would release the source code to that game so someone could pick it up and work on it (the 96//7/8 version, NOT the 99 version).

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by highandoutside

I love what Markus has done at OOTP. He has taken my 41 year hobby to a place I never imagined. If he doesn't have time to do a football sim, I understand.

In that case, however, I wonder if he'd be willing to release Jim and allow him to partner up with a company like Wolverine Studios. Gary's game has just enough graphics to get things started, and his college and pro football games would greatly benefit from the depth of FOF's statistical/roster management engine. (Of course Jim and Gary would have to be on board with this, I'm just highlighting the idea that their are other enterprising game developers who might be able to give FOF the time and UI it deserves.)

#freejim?

[ChrisJNelson]

Originally Posted by AlexB

#freejim?

Is there specific reason to believe either side needs/wants a separation?

[Gary Gorski]

Originally Posted by highandoutside

I love what Markus has done at OOTP. He has taken my 41 year hobby to a place I never imagined. If he doesn't have time to do a football sim, I understand.

In that case, however, I wonder if he'd be willing to release Jim and allow him to partner up with a company like Wolverine Studios. Gary's game has just enough graphics to get things started, and his college and pro football games would greatly benefit from the depth of FOF's statistical/roster management engine. (Of course Jim and Gary would have to be on board with this, I'm just highlighting the idea that their are other enterprising game developers who might be able to give FOF the time and UI it deserves.)

I too complement Markus on what he has done with OOTP - he has shown that a small studio can be wildly successful in this genre but I don't think it would have happened without a community that was willing to get behind a game they felt had potential and do whatever they could to help make it better.

Anyhow the only reason I popped in to comment here was that while I certainly think very highly of Jim and consider him a friend, I am very happy with the development job Brooks has done at Wolverine. Every year his games get better and PF21 is going to be amazing! We're working with the new interface platform and it already is incredible. You mentioned roster management and I know for a fact that is an area Brooks has told me he is making adjustments on based on feedback. That's one thing we really try to focus on - if someone has constructive feedback we're happy to listen and see how we can make it better. That is how the basketball games have come so far and why the football games are on the same trajectory.

I know Jim will make a great game here with OOTP but I think that the DDSPF series shows tremendous improvement every year and PF21 is going to be fantastic. It won't be FOF - it's not meant to be - but I think there is room to have two great football sims especially if each has its own strengths. In fact if you have any feedback to make it better now is the time as we are in the midst of coding it. This may not be the most appropriate place for it but join our forums or slack channel and get your wants in while we can do something about them!

[AlexB]

Originally Posted by ChrisJNelson

Is there specific reason to believe either side needs/wants a separation?

My comment was mostly in jest, but to answer your question, I did read some frustration in Jim’s last post. Might well be wrong, but that’s what I took from it.