Historical MLB/Minors roster and db issues go here - Page 6

swampdragon · 03-25-2016, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

This is just cosmetic. The game plays out fine. Update #2 in a couple of weeks will handle this.

I'm confused. Does that mean the ratings I see on the screen are not the ones the game will be playing with?

Spritze · 03-25-2016, 12:40 PM

I need to add Range Factors, Carm, OFarm and Cability to the minor league fielding stats as they exist in the MLB file. Then this will work as expected. That is over 5 million calculated fields. Hence update #2. In the meantime I ran a 1919 to 1930 test and the game played out just fine.

David Watts · 03-25-2016, 02:10 PM

Playing 1921 with real minors. Seeing tons of minor league players with years doubled on their real stats page. If a guy played in 60 games with 120 at bats and 30 hits. He will have another line with 60 games, 120 at bats and 30 hits. Then a total line for that year of 120 games, 240 at bats and 60 hits. Same goes for pitchers.

Spritze · 03-25-2016, 02:30 PM

That is how BBref stores much of their historical data. Nothing we can do about that. It does not have any effect on a players ratings.

David Watts · 03-25-2016, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

That is how BBref stores much of their historical data. Nothing we can do about that. It does not have any effect on a players ratings.

So we aren't going to see pitchers that had 189 actual strikeouts have it doubled to 378 and get recalced into a Nolan Ryan like monster?

actionjackson · 03-25-2016, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

So we aren't going to see pitchers that had 189 actual strikeouts have it doubled to 378 and get recalced into a Nolan Ryan like monster?

Since Spritze hasn't answered yet, I'll take a stab at it. Since everything (including IP) doubles, I don't think you'll have this problem. It's more about the rate at which it happens than about the absolute number, but Spritze feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

David Watts · 03-25-2016, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by actionjackson

Since Spritze hasn't answered yet, I'll take a stab at it. Since everything (including IP) doubles, I don't think you'll have this problem. It's more about the rate at which it happens than about the absolute number, but Spritze feel free to tell me I'm wrong.

Cool. I guess I'm making a mountain out of a mole hair. I guess I'm flashing back to the pre 1900 hundred pitchers that would turn into video game superheros when playing random debut.

Spritze · 03-25-2016, 03:14 PM

Ratings matter in gameplay. The rest is mole hairs.

MarkJ · 03-25-2016, 06:04 PM

I set up a recreation of the 1939 season with real minor leagues, and set myself as manager of the Seattle Rainiers. While playing a game I noticed something odd--when I went to the bench to put in a pinch hitter, the roster was full of several players known as "Jim Unknown." They don't actually show up on the team roster away from an actual game, just when you go to the bench for a sub during a game. It's no big deal if I'm running the game; I'll just ignore them, but when the games are played automatically, sometimes several Jim Unknowns get into the game on the same team at several different positions. This is different than something else I've noticed, e.g., "Ballplayer Kondash" for the Hazleton Mountaineers of the Interstate League--there actually was a Kondash for Hazleton but his first name is unknown according to baseballreference.com.

Another issue is that the Interstate League for 1938 is incorrectly identified as AA; Baseballreference.com identifies it as at the C level, roughly comparable to Short Season A in today's arrangement.

Spritze · 03-25-2016, 09:34 PM

All the Jim Unknowns are Ghost players.

MarkJ · 03-25-2016, 11:21 PM

Okay, but why are they there? I've got a full roster, and then these ghost guys show up only when I go to the bench for a sub, whether I need them or not. On a related note, I'm managing my beloved Tri City Atoms in the 1965 simulation, and my kindly Baltimore General Manager sent all but three position players to another team and left me with 12 relief pitchers. So, the ubiquitous Mr. Unknown fills in all the roster spots. This is actually better than the Salem Dodgers and Eugene Emeralds which have NO players. I suppose this is what happens when your league is at the bottom of the pecking order.

Spritze · 03-26-2016, 08:07 AM

Adjust the roster sizes of the leagues above you to a smaller size and they will send you players.

risp2out · 03-26-2016, 10:51 AM

Jim Unknown is consistently too strong in historical minors. I have sampled historical minors in the 1920s, 1940s, and 1970s. So far, every Jim Unknown I've encountered has been a 4- or 5-star player, and often the best player on the team. J. Unknowns are necessary, but shouldn't they simply be a league average player? The result is that the AI will start name players, and then bring a series of J. Unknown pinch hitters in the 9th inning to mount 4- and 5-run rallies. Takes away from the immersion of this great feature.

Spritze · 03-26-2016, 11:06 AM

I have no idea how Jim Unknowns are created. I will bring your concerns to the people who are in control of this.

risp2out · 03-26-2016, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

I have no idea how Jim Unknowns are created. I will bring your concerns to the people who are in control of this.

Thank you very much, sir. It's coincidence that J Unknown was the topic of discussion just before this in the thread. I had just noticed it again in the games I was playing this morning and thought I'd jot down a quick this-might-be-a-bug (or, at least, an oversight) note.

Based purely on what I'm seeing as I play out games, it almost seems as if the game creates J Unknown to be an average (or slightly below average) major leaguer. That makes him a stud in the minors, and maybe a super stud in the low minors (although I haven't played out many games at that level).

One of the problems with immersion is that when you check the roster for your opponent, it seems unrealistic that these ghost guys aren't starting. The name players are, by ratings at least, clearly inferior. The other problem, as I mentioned above, is the way the AI uses them to pinch hit in strings for big innings.

The idea of J Unknowns floating around the minors (especially in the more distant past and the very low minors) is, in and of itself, kind of realistic. I imagine an old timey radio guy saying, "Well, #54 is stepping in to pinch hit. He's not on my score card, so we'll have to find out who this young man is." That's cool, but it's not cool that they're all so good.

Thanks again.

reflections · 03-26-2016, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

Playing 1921 with real minors. Seeing tons of minor league players with years doubled on their real stats page. If a guy played in 60 games with 120 at bats and 30 hits. He will have another line with 60 games, 120 at bats and 30 hits. Then a total line for that year of 120 games, 240 at bats and 60 hits. Same goes for pitchers.

I've started a few different years and seen various players like this. While it doesn't mean much, what it does is through off the leaderboards (which probably only bug OCD players like me). Having Tug Hulett be ranked number 1 for games played at 264.. just gets to me lol
Is there no fix for this?

Spritze · 03-26-2016, 02:05 PM

A fix is what there is not. OOTP is not in control of this. No good solution but lots of bad ones.

risp2out · 03-26-2016, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

A fix is what there is not. OOTP is not in control of this. No good solution but lots of bad ones.

Hmmmm. I was just about to post on this subject as I noticed Dick Newsome 1939 with both Portland and SD in the PCL.

Can you tell us how this affects ratings and recalc, please? Inquiring minds want to know.

Edit: Scrolled back up and saw your reply to David Watts. Does it not even affect stamina in pitchers?

reflections · 03-26-2016, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

A fix is what there is not. OOTP is not in control of this. No good solution but lots of bad ones.

No worries.
It is mostly just a OCD thing.

actionjackson · 03-26-2016, 05:20 PM

Thank you very much Sir Spritze for the corrections to the 2015 Neutralized Pitching Stats in 17.4.36 (Update #1). They look good to my untrained eyes.

They came out really well I think.

A couple of issues remain though. Pitchers are still beginning the year with the wrong teams due to their Neutralized Stats being recorded as being with a team other than the one they played for. For example, Shaun Marcum imports as a Blue Jay and he hasn't been here since 2010 because he has stats for Toronto and Cleveland in his real life neutralized stats. Kendall Graveman also begins 2015 as a Blue Jay, and Daniel Norris starts as a Tiger for the same reason. There are many other examples and they can be fixed probably by sticking to teams these guys actually pitched for in 2015 in the order in which they pitched for them. I hope that makes sense.

Also the fielding stats (both neutralized and real) still have the Innings Played Outs versus Innings Played issues that they had before, namely, every player's fielding stats have exactly one third of the innings they actually played at all the positions they played. Multiplying by three on all of the Innings Played Outs for all players should fix that one. I suspect this wouldn't affect ratings if one was to play a straight up 2015 historical, but in a random debut historical, things could get weird.

I'll attach Shaun Marcum and Luke Gregerson to illustrate the pitchers on the wrong team issue, and Brock Holt to illustrate the Fielding Innings issue. Thank you very much for all your hard work and patience with folks like me.

03-25-2016, 12:40 PM	#102
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	I need to add Range Factors, Carm, OFarm and Cability to the minor league fielding stats as they exist in the MLB file. Then this will work as expected. That is over 5 million calculated fields. Hence update #2. In the meantime I ran a 1919 to 1930 test and the game played out just fine. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-25-2016, 02:30 PM	#104
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	That is how BBref stores much of their historical data. Nothing we can do about that. It does not have any effect on a players ratings. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it! Last edited by Spritze; 03-25-2016 at 03:12 PM.

03-25-2016, 03:14 PM	#108
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Ratings matter in gameplay. The rest is mole hairs. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-25-2016, 09:34 PM	#110
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	All the Jim Unknowns are Ghost players. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-26-2016, 08:07 AM	#112
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Adjust the roster sizes of the leagues above you to a smaller size and they will send you players. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-25-2016, 02:10 PM	#103
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 9,459 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	Playing 1921 with real minors. Seeing tons of minor league players with years doubled on their real stats page. If a guy played in 60 games with 120 at bats and 30 hits. He will have another line with 60 games, 120 at bats and 30 hits. Then a total line for that year of 120 games, 240 at bats and 60 hits. Same goes for pitchers.

03-25-2016, 06:04 PM	#109
MarkJ Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Washington State Posts: 36	I set up a recreation of the 1939 season with real minor leagues, and set myself as manager of the Seattle Rainiers. While playing a game I noticed something odd--when I went to the bench to put in a pinch hitter, the roster was full of several players known as "Jim Unknown." They don't actually show up on the team roster away from an actual game, just when you go to the bench for a sub during a game. It's no big deal if I'm running the game; I'll just ignore them, but when the games are played automatically, sometimes several Jim Unknowns get into the game on the same team at several different positions. This is different than something else I've noticed, e.g., "Ballplayer Kondash" for the Hazleton Mountaineers of the Interstate League--there actually was a Kondash for Hazleton but his first name is unknown according to baseballreference.com. Another issue is that the Interstate League for 1938 is incorrectly identified as AA; Baseballreference.com identifies it as at the C level, roughly comparable to Short Season A in today's arrangement.

03-25-2016, 11:21 PM	#111
MarkJ Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Washington State Posts: 36	Okay, but why are they there? I've got a full roster, and then these ghost guys show up only when I go to the bench for a sub, whether I need them or not. On a related note, I'm managing my beloved Tri City Atoms in the 1965 simulation, and my kindly Baltimore General Manager sent all but three position players to another team and left me with 12 relief pitchers. So, the ubiquitous Mr. Unknown fills in all the roster spots. This is actually better than the Salem Dodgers and Eugene Emeralds which have NO players. I suppose this is what happens when your league is at the bottom of the pecking order.

03-26-2016, 10:51 AM	#113
risp2out All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 648	Jim Unknown is consistently too strong in historical minors. I have sampled historical minors in the 1920s, 1940s, and 1970s. So far, every Jim Unknown I've encountered has been a 4- or 5-star player, and often the best player on the team. J. Unknowns are necessary, but shouldn't they simply be a league average player? The result is that the AI will start name players, and then bring a series of J. Unknown pinch hitters in the 9th inning to mount 4- and 5-run rallies. Takes away from the immersion of this great feature.

03-26-2016, 11:06 AM	#114
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	I have no idea how Jim Unknowns are created. I will bring your concerns to the people who are in control of this. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-26-2016, 02:05 PM	#117
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	A fix is what there is not. OOTP is not in control of this. No good solution but lots of bad ones. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

03-26-2016, 05:20 PM	#120
actionjackson Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Toronto, ON Posts: 6,163	Thank you very much Sir Spritze for the corrections to the 2015 Neutralized Pitching Stats in 17.4.36 (Update #1). They look good to my untrained eyes. They came out really well I think. A couple of issues remain though. Pitchers are still beginning the year with the wrong teams due to their Neutralized Stats being recorded as being with a team other than the one they played for. For example, Shaun Marcum imports as a Blue Jay and he hasn't been here since 2010 because he has stats for Toronto and Cleveland in his real life neutralized stats. Kendall Graveman also begins 2015 as a Blue Jay, and Daniel Norris starts as a Tiger for the same reason. There are many other examples and they can be fixed probably by sticking to teams these guys actually pitched for in 2015 in the order in which they pitched for them. I hope that makes sense. Also the fielding stats (both neutralized and real) still have the Innings Played Outs versus Innings Played issues that they had before, namely, every player's fielding stats have exactly one third of the innings they actually played at all the positions they played. Multiplying by three on all of the Innings Played Outs for all players should fix that one. I suspect this wouldn't affect ratings if one was to play a straight up 2015 historical, but in a random debut historical, things could get weird. I'll attach Shaun Marcum and Luke Gregerson to illustrate the pitchers on the wrong team issue, and Brock Holt to illustrate the Fielding Innings issue. Thank you very much for all your hard work and patience with folks like me. Attached Images