Contract Bug

[simcrazy]

I have Ta's player page up - what additional info do you need?

[RchW]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

Another one, also on the 3rd team I checked:

Cong Ta. 2.70 ERA 1.28 WHIP 7/2 K/BB in 13.1 IP. Relief pitcher. My scout has him at 43/62/47 (out of 100) - not a superstar for sure, but useful enough that I may want to give a MLB deal for next year on the cheap. Especially if he were promoted later in the year and did well.

If you promote him he gets a minimum mlb contract, and then he's tied to you for a minimum of 6 years. That's as cheap as it gets. You could also just put him on the 40 man roster at any time. No negotiation required.

Why do you persist in not understanding how contracts work? This has been discussed before.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

If you promote him he gets a minimum mlb contract, and then he's tied to you for a minimum of 6 years. That's as cheap as it gets. You could also just put him on the 40 man roster at any time. No negotiation required.

Why do you persist in not understanding how contracts work? This has been discussed before.

Ta has a $1.1M contract.

Also, you might want to buy out arbitration years in the scenario that you present (you know, the one where you assumed you had more information than you did).

[RchW]

Screen shots would help.

[Le Grande Orange]

I must caution between conflating the issue of players being passed through waivers who perhaps should not be and the issue of whether it ought to be possible to offer a contract extension to an outrighted player. These are two different things.

It seems to me if the former was addressed the latter all but disappears since there would be few major league quality players being outrighted to the minors.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

Screen shots would help.

I have already asked for help in doing a screen shot. I don't know how to.

Or you can simply ask me for any information that you need to show you that it is indeed a problem.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I must caution between conflating the issue of players being passed through waivers who perhaps should not be and the issue of whether it ought to be possible to offer a contract extension to an outrighted player. These are two different things.

It seems to me if the former was addressed the latter all but disappears since there would be few major league quality players being outrighted to the minors.

They are separate issues that compound each other.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

I have already asked for help in doing a screen shot. I don't know how to.

Or you can simply ask me for any information that you need to show you that it is indeed a problem.

To post a screen shot have the player page up in the game. Press PrtScn to put it into the clipboard. Load a graphics program (I use Irfanview) paste from the clip board, make any changes and save the file.

When posting, click on the paperclip, browse for your file then upload.

For the purpose of this discussion, I suggest the contract and status page is the best one to attach. See below. This one is a little big.

[simcrazy]

"Your file of 298.0 KB bytes exceeds the forum's limit of 100.0 KB for this filetype."

Please just ask what information you need.

[RchW]

All the information in the 3 blocks entitled

Contract information
Contract Extension information
Roster Status information

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

All the information in the 3 blocks entitled

Contract information
Contract Extension information
Roster Status information

Contract type: Major League Contract
Expires: After 2011 Season
Signed prior to: 2011 Season
Total guaranteed value wh: $1,100,000
Total years when signed: 1 year
Remaining salaries: 2011 Season: $1,100,000
Contract Extension Information: NO EXTENSION SIGNED
Roster Status Information
Player Expectation: Expects to play in the majors
Trade availability: Available
Major League Service Time: 12 Year(s), 5 Days
Major League Service Time This Year: 0 Days
Time on Secondary Roster: 12 Year(s), 5 Days
Time as a Professional: 14 Year(s), 48 days
Rule 5 Eligibility: ELIGIBLE
Waiver Status: CLEARED WAIVERS (Irrevocable)
Minor League Options: 2 option year(s) left
Salary Arbitration Status: Not eligible, free agent after contract expires!
Free Agent Type after Season: No Compensation

[RchW]

Game date and what roster he's on?

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

Game date and what roster he's on?

May 17th (I think, give or take a day) and AAA (Orioles)

[RchW]

Look at what I wrote back on post 47. You can see the problem was identified almost 90 posts and one week ago. That's a long time to find something that supposedly affected 100's of players.

The facts are, this player who is not good enough to be on the active roster and who is not of interest to any other team is temporarily not able to be offered a contract by the team that doesn't want him. If this league has a trading deadline the waiver wire will be wiped and unless the AI puts him on waivers again a contract can be offered. If the AI puts him on waivers again, before offering a new contract, would you still claim that it's for contract purposes? I bet it's because he makes $1.1M and the AI wants to dump that contract.

Is it a problem? Yes. Is it important? I think not, (I'd say a 2/10) but you may not agree. To me it depends on the reason for putting the player on waivers. I think we can state with certainty that it wasn't to offer him a new contract.

Originally Posted by RchW

There is still something wrong with the logic here. This is my understanding of how things work in my leagues.

The AI teams can only negotiate/sign free agents or offer extensions to their own players.

A player on another team who may have cleared waivers is off limits to any team (AI or Human)because he is still under contract to that team. No problem here.

All players who are released and become FA are removed from waivers. That includes all the players above that were previously off limits. No problem here.

Players who are traded are removed from waivers. That makes them signable by the receiving team. Again I see no problem here.

The waiver wire is cleared at the trade deadline (if it's active in the game) since trades after that require waivers. So on Aug 1 or whatever date for a short time, no one is on waivers. No problem with that and if a waiver trade is made the players involved are removed from waivers as indicated above.

Edit, waivers are wiped clean at the start of the playoffs. I just confirmed this in game. I'm also sure that waivers are wiped clean at the start of the regular season but have not confirmed this.

That leaves a very small subset of players which would only be players on the AI team that were put on waivers and cleared but not removed. These players are still under contract so there is little reason to want to negotiate a contract unless they are a pending FA. One would question the risk of putting a pending FA, especially a good one on waivers. The AI does strange things

This problem would last until the trade deadline (if activated) as indicated above. I still question the logic of putting a player on waivers while trying to negotiate an extension. It makes no sense but even if we stipulate this subset of players as a problem it is not even close to the extent claimed above.

To summarize this problem is limited to players already on each AI team still under contract, placed on waivers and who have cleared waivers.

The majority of these players are likely to be minor leaguers who are not yet minor league FA. Some may be minor league FA and others may be 40 man or 25 man roster guys. Of the 40 man and 25 man roster players any with less than 6 years MLB service are safe. The only players who present a risk to the AI team would be a pending FA that the AI wants to offer an extension.


This is my best look at it. I might be wrong. Please feel free to correct any flaws in the argument.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

Look at what I wrote back on post 47. You can see the problem was identified almost 90 posts and one week ago. That's a long time to find something that supposedly affected 100's of players.

The facts are, this player who is not good enough to be on the active roster and who is not of interest to any other team is temporarily not able to be offered a contract by the team that doesn't want him. If this league has a trading deadline the waiver wire will be wiped and unless the AI puts him on waivers again a contract can be offered. If the AI puts him on waivers again, before offering a new contract, would you still claim that it's for contract purposes? I bet it's because he makes $1.1M and the AI wants to dump that contract.

Is it a problem? Yes. Is it important? I think not, (I'd say a 2/10) but you may not agree. To me it depends on the reason for putting the player on waivers. I think we can state with certainty that it wasn't to offer him a new contract.

I don't understand what you are saying in your first paragraph. I looked at three teams' rosters (alphabetical order) before I found Ta.

What if he has a great next month at AAA, is promoted and does well? Not unlikely, and I'm sure I could find others like him. So it is a problem. I agree that it is not severe problem, but it was seemingly argued that it was not a problem at all earlier in the thread.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

I don't understand what you are saying in your first paragraph. I looked at three teams' rosters (alphabetical order) before I found Ta.

What if he has a great next month at AAA, is promoted and does well? Not unlikely, and I'm sure I could find others like him. So it is a problem. I agree that it is not severe problem, but it was seemingly argued that it was not a problem at all earlier in the thread.

Two can play what if.

What if he's a declining player with a bigger contract than the AI's internal algorithm wants. On the list of probabilities what are the most likely reasons such a player would be waived.

1. Not good enough ie better players at the positions he plays.
2. Makes too much money, compared to better players.
3. Both 1 and 2.
4. Put him on waivers but don't want him claimed so we can send him to the minors and hope he improves enough to offer a contract for next year.

I'd say that 1, 2, 3 in any order make up about 95%-99% of the reason the player was waived and the "what if" he gets better is clutching at straws. I don't dispute that the mechanical block that prevents contract offers to this very small subset of players should be fixed. I do dispute that it is a problem requiring any action now.

[Le Grande Orange]

There's a more curious problem with this particular player. Note his major league service time: 12 years, 5 days.

This player has more than enough service time to have refused any assignment to the minors and remained on the active roster of his club. Given this, why on Earth would he accept an outright to the minors? He could have refused the assignment and stayed on the 25-man active roster. The club's only choices at that point would have been to have either traded the player or released him. And if he's released he gets paid anyway and could try his luck in the free agent market.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

There's a more curious problem with this particular player. Note his major league service time: 12 years, 5 days.

This player has more than enough service time to have refused any assignment to the minors and remained on the active roster of his club. Given this, why on Earth would he accept an outright to the minors? He could have refused the assignment and stayed on the 25-man active roster. The club's only choices at that point would have been to have either traded the player or released him. And if he's released he gets paid anyway and could try his luck in the free agent market.

He gets paid if he takes the assignment. You are right though I forgot to ask simcrazy if he has right of refusal turned on

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by RchW

He gets paid if he takes the assignment.

He gets paid if he gets released too. And being released is better, really, since he then becomes a free agent and can try to get signed by another club.

I find it hard to believe any player with 12 years of major league service would accept an outright assignment to the minors.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

There are certainly players in real life who have had the right to refuse minor league assignments and accepted them anyway.