Penalty/Fighting stats

julius · 04-06-2013, 12:41 AM

The penalty/fighting stats seem to be off (build 12). I simmed a season as Toronto, made sure that McLaren/Orr and Jared Boll (traded for) were dressed regularly, and only one of them got into a single fight. Leo Komarov led the team with six (he hits, but doesn't fight in real life). I assume the tactics screen isn't running yet, so am not sure that I can influence this. It is a bit of a defining feature for the Leafs this year (whether good or bad), and has certainly also helped define other teams, so it would be great to see this dimension reflected in both the the game engine and these stats at some point.

Rob316 · 04-06-2013, 01:36 AM

I went as far as adding a "No Movement" clause to every teams Enforcer and Agitators such as the Rinaldo's of the league but they seem to always be demoted to the AHL for some odd reason. I love the physical side of the game and play Enforcers and Agitators faithfully.

Problem is the game hates anyone who is "tough" and non-fighters seem to be the ones who fight even though they're stats say otherwise... ahem... Semin / Yakobov etc...

I'm hoping they figure out a way to add some kind of value to these players as playing them is virtually useless at this point. Researchers have done a phenominal job on rating but when it comes to tough guys, they're seems to be an awful lot of bias for how much of a wuss Thorntons 12 rating is compared to a heavy weight like Tavares solid 13! lol =P

I'd like for them to balance this issue out as soon as they can as the games are becoming more and more stale physically. A feature that will let us select players individually and assign the role of who fights and who doesn't would be great but I'm afraid that every single Enforcer and tough guy in this database is being demoted with absolutely no internal value is my biggest fear. I don't expect the players to be kicking out 400 plus PIMS a season and it becoming part WWE, but if I'm playing a guy like Kassian and have him assigned to fight regulary, collecting 240 PIM's plus in a season playing in all 82 games should be more than possible. Rinaldo and Dorsett had 230 a year ago!

I'm also hoping for a Fight frequency slider that would increase or decrease it to our liking, kind of like the current injury option at the moment. The AHL is fight filled compared to the current NHL... If I choose to play in the AHL then I'd adjust it higher than the NHL's frequency to mimic the reality of both the leagues.

geckon · 04-06-2013, 07:16 AM

As far as I know, the fighting stat isn't properly set in the database right now sou you should see improvement in the next DB updates.

Rob316 · 04-06-2013, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by geckon

As far as I know, the fighting stat isn't properly set in the database right now sou you should see improvement in the next DB updates.

Great news! Thanks Geckon

julius · 04-06-2013, 11:48 AM

It would be great to have this addressed in the next update, although I know that there are a lot of other requests. I am just happy that it is on the agenda. I wonder though if this is just a database issue. I have edited players to max out on the aggression/fighting attributes, but this doesn't make much difference to how frequently they fight. I suspect this is more of a game engine issue.

Rob316 · 04-06-2013, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by julius

It would be great to have this addressed in the next update, although I know that there are a lot of other requests. I am just happy that it is on the agenda. I wonder though if this is just a database issue. I have edited players to max out on the aggression/fighting attributes, but this doesn't make much difference to how frequently they fight. I suspect this is more of a game engine issue.

I'm also hoping there is a value set internally for the Enforcer / Pest players for teams across the league's to keep these guys from being scratched and banished to the AHL constantly.

I know they're are a thousand other things needed attention but here's hoping brother!

*cheers*

julius · 04-07-2013, 12:12 PM

In addition to having the game decide that it is worthwhile to dress and play enforcers on a more consistent basis, the more difficult request is to somehow register their impact in a game. I know that you and others have raised this point as well, but even if we assign a "value" to these enforcers to raise their chances of being dressed, this "value" also needs to have some effect in individual games or it is just an artificial number. I don't know what algorithms the game engine uses, so any suggestions here would be general in nature, but this would be an interesting discussion.

For example, one simple approach might be to just increase all (some?) attribute levels for each player by 10% for 10 minutes following a fight won by a teammate to reflect the 'spark' that this provides. I don't know how meaningful this would be in affecting the results of a simmed game, and obviously there are other variations that could be proposed. Without something like this, the only advantage in dressing enforcers (since their other attributes are generally low) is to duplicate their usage in real life, to the detriment of your team. Obviously, there are many NHL coaches who don't see it this way (right or wrong), and who do see a 'value' for them, and I am hoping that we can capture some of that for FHM.

Rob316 · 04-07-2013, 02:32 PM

That is a excellent idea Julius. I think a small boost (8-10%) in the physical & mental attributes for a short period of time would be a phenomenal feature as this would provide the incentive for both AI GM's and Human controlled GM's into playing these tough players. This would help set the tone for physical games meaning the players will come out banging and crashing more from the energy it provides, mabey even leading into another spirited scrap if the teams are heavy on dressing the tougher players. Ie. Toronto vs Ottawa. A large question is how the FHM team can provide a "internal value" to players throughout the leagues especially the NHL and combat them being sent down and scratched all year and convincing the AI into inserting a player who brings this element to the game. Mabey the engine can compare lineups and add the "aggression" and "fighting" stat into it's equation and counter by scratching the 12th forward in lieu of a tough guy. Some coaches in particular aren't heavy on the physical side but most teams in the NHL are now sporting a designated guy to handle the rough stuff.

For both Human GM's & AI GM's, who choose not to play with Enforcers and would rather fill the 12th forward with a particular guy that can add more of a skilled approach to the game would equalize for the small boost the teams would get with Enforcers slotted into the lineups. I'd really love to hear from the FHM team on they're approach to this aspect of the game or any ideas or feedback especially if they'd consider something like this if it isn't to sophisticated to add into the game engine.

Sebmono · 04-08-2013, 11:57 AM

I wanted to start by saying that I don't really care for adding value for enforcers into the game but don't want to start any arguments or discussions over that here since it has gone on in other threads. However, I do realize it is something that some people want in as a feature so I wanted to throw my suggestions in as far as how potential implementation could look like.

I think Julius and Rob, you guys are on an interesting track thinking about some sort of bonus system to implement, but I'm thinking the bonus should go a different direction. Since the personnel decision is essentially one of tough/fighting guy vs. skill/scoring guy on the 3rd and/or 4th lines (i.e. for the Caps a Wolski vs. Volpatti choice) I think the tradeoff would be more interesting if it was a game impact decision evaluating a "opponent penalty" vs. "team bonus". So instead of the enforcer providing a bonus to their teammates, they should instead impose a penalty on their opponents to reflect wearing them down and/or knocking them off their game. This would be as opposed to having more skill in the lineup which would increase your teams overall ability. That way the choice between tough vs. skill isn't simply one of substitution (i.e. do I take the skill boost of my enforcer or the skill boost of my skill guy) but it's a more interesting one of do I want to reduce my opponents effectiveness or increase my own.

I think this implementation also better reflects the common arguments made for the effectiveness of enforcers; although I do realize some people also say that fighting gives their team a "spark", I think the more realistic and likely argument is that the tough physical guys can potentially just beat up on and wear down on an opponents skill guys, thereby reducing their effectiveness (akin to a boxer delivering body punches over the course of a fight). This would also leave room for more characterized team styles to be developed, like developing a hard nosed team full of great defense, goal tending, and tough enforcers who like to fight out low scoring 1-0 games or a high flying, fast and skilled group of run-n-gunners?

04-06-2013, 12:41 AM	#1
julius Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 66	Penalty/Fighting stats The penalty/fighting stats seem to be off (build 12). I simmed a season as Toronto, made sure that McLaren/Orr and Jared Boll (traded for) were dressed regularly, and only one of them got into a single fight. Leo Komarov led the team with six (he hits, but doesn't fight in real life). I assume the tactics screen isn't running yet, so am not sure that I can influence this. It is a bit of a defining feature for the Leafs this year (whether good or bad), and has certainly also helped define other teams, so it would be great to see this dimension reflected in both the the game engine and these stats at some point.

04-06-2013, 01:36 AM	#2
Rob316 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 50	I went as far as adding a "No Movement" clause to every teams Enforcer and Agitators such as the Rinaldo's of the league but they seem to always be demoted to the AHL for some odd reason. I love the physical side of the game and play Enforcers and Agitators faithfully. Problem is the game hates anyone who is "tough" and non-fighters seem to be the ones who fight even though they're stats say otherwise... ahem... Semin / Yakobov etc... I'm hoping they figure out a way to add some kind of value to these players as playing them is virtually useless at this point. Researchers have done a phenominal job on rating but when it comes to tough guys, they're seems to be an awful lot of bias for how much of a wuss Thorntons 12 rating is compared to a heavy weight like Tavares solid 13! lol =P I'd like for them to balance this issue out as soon as they can as the games are becoming more and more stale physically. A feature that will let us select players individually and assign the role of who fights and who doesn't would be great but I'm afraid that every single Enforcer and tough guy in this database is being demoted with absolutely no internal value is my biggest fear. I don't expect the players to be kicking out 400 plus PIMS a season and it becoming part WWE, but if I'm playing a guy like Kassian and have him assigned to fight regulary, collecting 240 PIM's plus in a season playing in all 82 games should be more than possible. Rinaldo and Dorsett had 230 a year ago! I'm also hoping for a Fight frequency slider that would increase or decrease it to our liking, kind of like the current injury option at the moment. The AHL is fight filled compared to the current NHL... If I choose to play in the AHL then I'd adjust it higher than the NHL's frequency to mimic the reality of both the leagues. Last edited by Rob316; 04-06-2013 at 01:57 AM.

04-06-2013, 07:16 AM	#3
geckon Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 2,077	As far as I know, the fighting stat isn't properly set in the database right now sou you should see improvement in the next DB updates. __________________ FHM tester, fan and former researcher (Czech Republic and KHL) since FHM 1.

04-07-2013, 02:32 PM	#8
Rob316 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 50	That is a excellent idea Julius. I think a small boost (8-10%) in the physical & mental attributes for a short period of time would be a phenomenal feature as this would provide the incentive for both AI GM's and Human controlled GM's into playing these tough players. This would help set the tone for physical games meaning the players will come out banging and crashing more from the energy it provides, mabey even leading into another spirited scrap if the teams are heavy on dressing the tougher players. Ie. Toronto vs Ottawa. A large question is how the FHM team can provide a "internal value" to players throughout the leagues especially the NHL and combat them being sent down and scratched all year and convincing the AI into inserting a player who brings this element to the game. Mabey the engine can compare lineups and add the "aggression" and "fighting" stat into it's equation and counter by scratching the 12th forward in lieu of a tough guy. Some coaches in particular aren't heavy on the physical side but most teams in the NHL are now sporting a designated guy to handle the rough stuff. For both Human GM's & AI GM's, who choose not to play with Enforcers and would rather fill the 12th forward with a particular guy that can add more of a skilled approach to the game would equalize for the small boost the teams would get with Enforcers slotted into the lineups. I'd really love to hear from the FHM team on they're approach to this aspect of the game or any ideas or feedback especially if they'd consider something like this if it isn't to sophisticated to add into the game engine. Last edited by Rob316; 04-07-2013 at 02:46 PM.

04-06-2013, 11:48 AM	#5
julius Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 66	It would be great to have this addressed in the next update, although I know that there are a lot of other requests. I am just happy that it is on the agenda. I wonder though if this is just a database issue. I have edited players to max out on the aggression/fighting attributes, but this doesn't make much difference to how frequently they fight. I suspect this is more of a game engine issue.

04-07-2013, 12:12 PM	#7
julius Minors (Single A) Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 66	In addition to having the game decide that it is worthwhile to dress and play enforcers on a more consistent basis, the more difficult request is to somehow register their impact in a game. I know that you and others have raised this point as well, but even if we assign a "value" to these enforcers to raise their chances of being dressed, this "value" also needs to have some effect in individual games or it is just an artificial number. I don't know what algorithms the game engine uses, so any suggestions here would be general in nature, but this would be an interesting discussion. For example, one simple approach might be to just increase all (some?) attribute levels for each player by 10% for 10 minutes following a fight won by a teammate to reflect the 'spark' that this provides. I don't know how meaningful this would be in affecting the results of a simmed game, and obviously there are other variations that could be proposed. Without something like this, the only advantage in dressing enforcers (since their other attributes are generally low) is to duplicate their usage in real life, to the detriment of your team. Obviously, there are many NHL coaches who don't see it this way (right or wrong), and who do see a 'value' for them, and I am hoping that we can capture some of that for FHM.

04-08-2013, 11:57 AM	#9
Sebmono Minors (Single A) Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 88	I wanted to start by saying that I don't really care for adding value for enforcers into the game but don't want to start any arguments or discussions over that here since it has gone on in other threads. However, I do realize it is something that some people want in as a feature so I wanted to throw my suggestions in as far as how potential implementation could look like. I think Julius and Rob, you guys are on an interesting track thinking about some sort of bonus system to implement, but I'm thinking the bonus should go a different direction. Since the personnel decision is essentially one of tough/fighting guy vs. skill/scoring guy on the 3rd and/or 4th lines (i.e. for the Caps a Wolski vs. Volpatti choice) I think the tradeoff would be more interesting if it was a game impact decision evaluating a "opponent penalty" vs. "team bonus". So instead of the enforcer providing a bonus to their teammates, they should instead impose a penalty on their opponents to reflect wearing them down and/or knocking them off their game. This would be as opposed to having more skill in the lineup which would increase your teams overall ability. That way the choice between tough vs. skill isn't simply one of substitution (i.e. do I take the skill boost of my enforcer or the skill boost of my skill guy) but it's a more interesting one of do I want to reduce my opponents effectiveness or increase my own. I think this implementation also better reflects the common arguments made for the effectiveness of enforcers; although I do realize some people also say that fighting gives their team a "spark", I think the more realistic and likely argument is that the tough physical guys can potentially just beat up on and wear down on an opponents skill guys, thereby reducing their effectiveness (akin to a boxer delivering body punches over the course of a fight). This would also leave room for more characterized team styles to be developed, like developing a hard nosed team full of great defense, goal tending, and tough enforcers who like to fight out low scoring 1-0 games or a high flying, fast and skilled group of run-n-gunners?