Does this guy deserve the HOF?

[Tyler87898]

I know that his WAR is solid enough to be in the HOF. He was a great defender at 3B over his career so I think that contributes a lot (though he only won four gold gloves). He was the league MVP once and an allstar twice. He never won a world series.

[bwburke94]

I think he barely gets in.

[Trebro]

How do his career numbers match up against his peers? Is 2500 hits a lot or a little? What are some of the WAR # for your existing Hall folks?

[Tyler87898]

Well if he were in the HOF, he would have the 9th best WAR over all 27 batters. So that's pretty good. I think I'm leaning towards putting him in.

edit: more to add, he is #15 on the all time hits list (most so far is 3197), #25 on HR list (most is 582), and #13 on all time WAR list for batters. His defense was top notch. He would be 2nd to last in OPS and OPS + in my HOF.

[bzombo]

Everyone has their own standards. I require a minimum of 400 HRs for power hitters. If they don't hit for power they need a career avg over .300. Minimum RBI I tend to put at around 1300-1400 unless it's a big time hitter who has little power, so a guy with 2800-3000 hits with low power and RBI numbers could still get in. Your example player played a long time and has less than 400 HR with a low average and low OPS. I'd say great player, but not HoF caliber. It also depends on how strict your HoF requirements are. Are you more like the MLB HoF or the NFL Hof? If it's the latter, I say let him in. If it's the former, I say no.

[actionjackson]

Defense top notch like Brooks Robinson top notch? Looks like he was a better hitter than the "Human Vacuum Cleaner". I would bet he's a notch below defensively though, but still very good, just not "Mr. Impossible" good. That WAR looks good enough to me, but what do I know? Maybe post his defensive stats as well, so we can see how he measures up in that area. IMHO, the HoF is not just about offense, but how the player measured up as an all around player. But that's just me. I say yes for now, but let's see that defense.

[DCmariner]

If defense is what gets him into the hall, sometimes it is worth looking at more than just ZR (which I think is the only thing OOTP considers in calculating the defensive component of WAR) by comparing it to EFF. Find the other top 3B from his era and see how his average ZR and EFF compare to them. If he really was the top defensive 3B from his era, then I would say (with those offensive stats) he goes into the hall.

[Trebro]

Based on his peers, I'd be inclined to yes.

[Cryomaniac]

I think he's borderline. What I like about stuff like this is the random things though (he never stole a base, but was caught stealing 4 times, in this case, and in a previous thread where a catcher had 1 career SB)

[Tyler87898]

Here is his fielding:

[PsychoBulk]

Based on a career OPS+ barely above league average, despite his excellent fielding stats, its a solid no from me.

[DCmariner]

Looks like he had ~10 elite defensive seasons while playing 2/3 of his games at 3B. He had an average of ZR/150 of >15 and EFF of >1.06 at the position, which is a level that is almost always elite/gold-glove in my leagues. However, his managers stuck him at 2B for almost half of his games, where he was somewhere between good and above average at the position (probably had a great arm but average double play skills).

If he'd been accumulating more defensive value by playing more than half of his career at 3B where he belonged, would be a definite hall of famer (he would probably have ~10 more career WAR). But with half his games at 2B, the case becomes more marginal, sort of a poor man's Jeff Kent.

[actionjackson]

What's his awards profile look like? How many ASG, MVP, and GG?

[Tyler87898]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

What's his awards profile look like? How many ASG, MVP, and GG?

4 gold gloves, 1 MVP award, and 2 all star appearances.

[Francoeurstein]

Looks like a poor man's Scott Rolen, or a consistent Chase Headley.

[r0nster]

he wouldn't be on my first ballot I would wait 15 years or let the veterins committee handle it

[Padreman]

No sadly no

[joefromchicago]

Aside from his power numbers, his stats look a lot like Brooks Robinson's. But Robinson won 16 gold gloves at third base, while your guy won only 4. Of course, those kinds of awards depend a lot on the amount of competition. A gold glove is a bit more impressive in a league with 16 teams as opposed to one in a league with 8 teams. Robinson won his awards playing in the AL when it had 10 or 12 teams. I don't know how big your league is, so I can't judge how your guy stacks up against the competition. I also think that the game AI sometimes makes some strange GG picks, but that's another issue.

Also, as has been mentioned, Lopes played a good portion of his career at second base, including at least four seasons where he was primarily a second baseman. There are a fair number of infielders who got into the HOF primarily on the strength of their fielding, but I can think of only one - Rabbit Maranville - who ever played any significant amount of time at a secondary position, and that was at the tail-end of the Rabbit's career. Every other HOFer who played multiple positions (e.g. Ernie Banks, Paul Molitor), got into the HOF largely on the strength of their hitting.

You can compare Lopes to Joe Morgan. Morgan hit fewer homers, but he still had a better career OPS+ number (132) because he walked a whole lot more (and he also stole 689 bases). Morgan had 5 GGs, but that was at second base, which is a more important position than third. Also, Morgan received two MVP trophies and starred on a team that dominated the NL in the 1970s. In comparison, Lopes looks fairly one-dimensional. He got over 2500 hits, but that's because he had a lot of at-bats, and if he's getting to the plate that often, he should get on base a lot more. (EDIT: I'll also add that, according to baseball analyst Joe Morgan, the greatest second baseman ever was Joe Morgan).

Based on all of that, I'd be inclined to say that Lopes wouldn't get my vote.

[Tyler87898]

I've been looking at some of the seasons where people won the gold glove over him and I'm seeing some weird choices, but a lot of the time he didn't win because he split too much time between 3B and 2B (like 100 games at 3B and 40 games at 2B).

[SFG]

I would say no. Less than 3,000 hits and under 400 HR's. Not a speedster. Good defender, only a two-time All-Star, and one-time MVP, barely above league average OPS. Nice career, definitely made plenty of $$, but not HOF.