Defensive Positions Calculations

rwd59 · 06-22-2008, 10:21 PM

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...culations.html

The above thread was lost in the general discussion thread, so I bring this discussion here. With Recalc turned off, do you want players to import with only the position they played as a rookie available to them, or with all the positions they played a reasonable amount at in their career available to them? I don't know how to do a poll or I would include one. I prefer to have all their positions available. I don't want Dale Murphy at catcher for his entire career, I want him to be able to play CF and maybe even 1B as he really did. In the past players have had all their positions available but not in this version. I prefer to play without recalc because it is too easy to stockpile talent at a minimal cost.

BeachBum · 06-23-2008, 02:46 AM

As I recall in either version 6.5 or possibly 2007 there was an option in the setup to allow players to be rated at all positions they played in their career when they were imported as rookies. Options are always good.

What I would really like to see is some combo of reality using the recalc and using development. It seems that utility middle infielders are hard to find and you cannot really "grow your own" by taking say a mediocre SS and having them play 2B and/or 3B in either the minors or spring training and retain and/or build on that the next year. The recalc wipes this all out.

This would be a great feature.

rwd59 · 06-23-2008, 09:55 AM

I thought it was 6.5 that had that option. This to me is a must for the game. I agree with what you said also. I would love for the game to have a recalc function that only involved defense from year to year. I might actually use the function then. With so many players importing with only 1 available position (even if they played more than 1 in the import year), it makes roster decisions more difficult. To be honest, I have not seen enough difference between this version and 2007 for the way I play the game for it to have been worth it for me to purchase it. In a few ways (like this one) it has gone backwards for me). That is not to suggest that is not better for others just not sure if it is to me.

rwd59 · 06-23-2008, 10:10 AM

Like I have said before, I don't like to use recalc because I can steal people that I know will be good in the future and build an unbelievable minor league system. It would be wonderful if the game could go in and look at a players defense every year and readjust them accordingly. Also, if a player did not play a position they had played the year before than not take that position away but lower the ratings. If they never play that position again then eventually the rating would disappear. Let the regular game development engine handle the offensive or pitching skills.

spark240 · 07-04-2008, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd59

With Recalc turned off, do you want players to import with only the position they played as a rookie available to them, or with all the positions they played a reasonable amount at in their career available to them?
...
I prefer to have all their positions available.

In real life, players had to learn their other positions; I want them to have to learn subsequent positions in the game, too, not have them all up front.

The point of disabling recalc is for players to develop according to the game engine; I want this to be true of defensive skills as well as offensive. (If the mechanism for defensive development within the game is imperfect, that is a separate issue.)

rwd59 · 07-04-2008, 06:04 PM

All I am asking for is to have the option that existed in the game in the past returned. I don't want to dictate my style to you, nor do I want you to dictate yours to me.

spark240 · 07-06-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd59

All I am asking for is to have the option that existed in the game in the past returned. I don't want to dictate my style to you, nor do I want you to dictate yours to me.

What? You asked a question, and I answered you. Nobody is dictating anything to anybody.

rwd59 · 07-06-2008, 07:17 PM

Ok, maybe I could have worded that better. My question is simple, what is the harm of returning an option that previously existed in the game?

jmknpk2 · 07-06-2008, 08:44 PM

In game setup/league setup/options/"Base roles/postions on" lets you choose between real life or AI evaluation.
Is that the setting you are looking for?

I think, based on my limited historical play, that when you set it to "real life", position ratings are adjusted each year to match the real life fielding stats.

rwd59 · 07-06-2008, 10:41 PM

Thanks for the reply but that is not the answer to what I am saying. I know about that setting.

BeachBum · 07-07-2008, 04:14 PM

I like the ablity to have players "learn" a new positon also but, if recalc is turned on, the "forget" this the following the year and have to start all over. Why can't they not only retain this knowledge but improve it?

Also, again if recalc is on,players "forget" positions as they are moved around for the benefit of the team. Killebrew in the 60's and Rose in the 70's are great examples. One year they are an OK to good 3rd baseman and the next year they can only play left field, with no rating at 3rd base. I find this very annoying and, while it is what happened, it does not reflect the player's abilty but rather the team need. I would much prefer a gradual diminishing of their abilities unless they continued to play the postion in the game.

rwd59 · 07-07-2008, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeachBum

I like the ablity to have players "learn" a new positon also but, if recalc is turned on, the "forget" this the following the year and have to start all over. Why can't they not only retain this knowledge but improve it?

Also, again if recalc is on,players "forget" positions as they are moved around for the benefit of the team. Killebrew in the 60's and Rose in the 70's are great examples. One year they are an OK to good 3rd baseman and the next year they can only play left field, with no rating at 3rd base. I find this very annoying and, while it is what happened, it does not reflect the player's abilty but rather the team need. I would much prefer a gradual diminishing of their abilities unless they continued to play the postion in the game.

I agree with you 1000%. I don't like to play with recalc very often. This is one of the reasons. I make a trade for a player to play a certain position and then the next year he is only eligible to play a position that I have an all star already playing. On top of that I have absolute crap at the position I needed when I traded for him. So now I have to trade him away to get someone else at the position. Take Pete Rose as you said. After he quit playing 2B and moved to one of his many other positions, it would be great if he kept the 3B rating but had it lowered every succeding season that he didn't play 3B until it eventually went away.

silentrob · 08-05-2008, 08:08 PM

I'd like to revive this thread with a new and I hope related question. I've been reading the posts on defensive imports today, but couldn't find anyone speaking to this precise issues. Keep in mind all these comments reflect the fact that I play an historical league without the recalc, so positions will not automatically update from year to year.

I understand why certain guys who played many positions historically only play 1 or 2 as rookies, if the other positions were a later career transition for them. This makes sense enough to me. I'm worried if the AI teams will ever teach players to play other positions, however. For example, in my current league, one team has 2 of the league's 10 best hitters, but both play 3b only, so with no DH, one guy pretty much just pinch hits. Furthermore, the bench guy has good defensive abilities, and so presumably would play tolerable defense at another position, but so far this year the AI has not played him anywhere except 3b.

If the AI teams never teach guys new defensive positions, that is rather limiting to career development in historical leagues. If the AI teams won't teach players new positions, then I can definitely understand why some people are clamoring for guys playing all their career positions upon import. Can someone who has played many seasons of a historical replay, or someone with knowledge of how the AI engine decides these things, address this issue?

Thanks in advance if anyone knows how this works.

BeachBum · 08-06-2008, 01:57 AM

I have never seen the AI "teach" a player a new position because of duplicated defensive abilities. I have seen the AI play players at positions they never have (nor should have) played during a game but it was because the AI pinch hit for the light hitting shortstop even though there is no other shortstop available on the roster. As a result, Yogi Berra ends up playing short.

I don't think the AI is anywhere near sophisticated enough to recognize that it needs to move Pete Rose to 3rd to make room for Joe Morgan at 2nd. Let alone then moving him to left to make room for Ray Knight at 3rd.

While this would certainly be great if the AI could/would do this, I don't see it happening in the near future. This seems like a huge leap to me.

rwd59 · 08-06-2008, 09:21 AM

Never really looked for answers to what you are asking. I do know that tons of players play different positions as their careers move along, just not always positions they actually played in their career.

silentrob · 08-06-2008, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rwd59

Never really looked for answers to what you are asking. I do know that tons of players play different positions as their careers move along, just not always positions they actually played in their career.

So you are saying that sometimes players will learn to play other positions, just not in response to certain particular events like the one I described above? Perhaps I'll keep an eye on some group of players and see if this happens with them over time.

I can understand why some people have strong opinions about these things. I am ok with guys playing positions they didn't play historically. After moving from SS, Robin Yount probably could have gone to several other positions, I don't think he had any special set of skills that predestined him to move to CF. But at the same time, just because a guy didn't play somewhere his rookie year, that doesn't mean that he couldn't play another position. Plenty of guys play only RF, for example, when they are equally capable in LF, and do play there later on, but this system doesn't account for that.

Thanks for the responses, my friends, I appreciate it. BTW, BeachBum, I lived in Aberdeen for a little while. I liked the area, even though I don't live in Washington anymore.

Ozzie Guillen · 08-10-2008, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silentrob

I am ok with guys playing positions they didn't play historically. After moving from SS, Robin Yount probably could have gone to several other positions, I don't think he had any special set of skills that predestined him to move to CF.

This is an excellent point and made me think of Craig Biggio. His career might have been completely different as a catcher. Also, Biggio probably could have played many positions due to his at least serviceable catcher arm and general athletic ability.

06-22-2008, 10:21 PM	#1
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 923	Defensive Positions Calculations http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...culations.html The above thread was lost in the general discussion thread, so I bring this discussion here. With Recalc turned off, do you want players to import with only the position they played as a rookie available to them, or with all the positions they played a reasonable amount at in their career available to them? I don't know how to do a poll or I would include one. I prefer to have all their positions available. I don't want Dale Murphy at catcher for his entire career, I want him to be able to play CF and maybe even 1B as he really did. In the past players have had all their positions available but not in this version. I prefer to play without recalc because it is too easy to stockpile talent at a minimal cost.

06-23-2008, 09:55 AM	#3
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 923	I thought it was 6.5 that had that option. This to me is a must for the game. I agree with what you said also. I would love for the game to have a recalc function that only involved defense from year to year. I might actually use the function then. With so many players importing with only 1 available position (even if they played more than 1 in the import year), it makes roster decisions more difficult. To be honest, I have not seen enough difference between this version and 2007 for the way I play the game for it to have been worth it for me to purchase it. In a few ways (like this one) it has gone backwards for me). That is not to suggest that is not better for others just not sure if it is to me. Last edited by rwd59; 06-23-2008 at 09:59 AM.

06-23-2008, 02:46 AM	#2
BeachBum Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2007 Location: Copalis Beach, WA Posts: 192	As I recall in either version 6.5 or possibly 2007 there was an option in the setup to allow players to be rated at all positions they played in their career when they were imported as rookies. Options are always good. What I would really like to see is some combo of reality using the recalc and using development. It seems that utility middle infielders are hard to find and you cannot really "grow your own" by taking say a mediocre SS and having them play 2B and/or 3B in either the minors or spring training and retain and/or build on that the next year. The recalc wipes this all out. This would be a great feature.

06-23-2008, 10:10 AM	#4
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 923	Like I have said before, I don't like to use recalc because I can steal people that I know will be good in the future and build an unbelievable minor league system. It would be wonderful if the game could go in and look at a players defense every year and readjust them accordingly. Also, if a player did not play a position they had played the year before than not take that position away but lower the ratings. If they never play that position again then eventually the rating would disappear. Let the regular game development engine handle the offensive or pitching skills.

07-04-2008, 06:04 PM	#6
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 923	All I am asking for is to have the option that existed in the game in the past returned. I don't want to dictate my style to you, nor do I want you to dictate yours to me.

07-06-2008, 07:17 PM	#8
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 923	Ok, maybe I could have worded that better. My question is simple, what is the harm of returning an option that previously existed in the game?

07-06-2008, 08:44 PM	#9
jmknpk2 All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 982	In game setup/league setup/options/"Base roles/postions on" lets you choose between real life or AI evaluation. Is that the setting you are looking for? I think, based on my limited historical play, that when you set it to "real life", position ratings are adjusted each year to match the real life fielding stats.

07-06-2008, 10:41 PM	#10
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 923	Thanks for the reply but that is not the answer to what I am saying. I know about that setting.

07-07-2008, 04:14 PM	#11
BeachBum Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2007 Location: Copalis Beach, WA Posts: 192	I like the ablity to have players "learn" a new positon also but, if recalc is turned on, the "forget" this the following the year and have to start all over. Why can't they not only retain this knowledge but improve it? Also, again if recalc is on,players "forget" positions as they are moved around for the benefit of the team. Killebrew in the 60's and Rose in the 70's are great examples. One year they are an OK to good 3rd baseman and the next year they can only play left field, with no rating at 3rd base. I find this very annoying and, while it is what happened, it does not reflect the player's abilty but rather the team need. I would much prefer a gradual diminishing of their abilities unless they continued to play the postion in the game.

08-05-2008, 08:08 PM	#13
silentrob Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Kalispell, MT Posts: 230	I'd like to revive this thread with a new and I hope related question. I've been reading the posts on defensive imports today, but couldn't find anyone speaking to this precise issues. Keep in mind all these comments reflect the fact that I play an historical league without the recalc, so positions will not automatically update from year to year. I understand why certain guys who played many positions historically only play 1 or 2 as rookies, if the other positions were a later career transition for them. This makes sense enough to me. I'm worried if the AI teams will ever teach players to play other positions, however. For example, in my current league, one team has 2 of the league's 10 best hitters, but both play 3b only, so with no DH, one guy pretty much just pinch hits. Furthermore, the bench guy has good defensive abilities, and so presumably would play tolerable defense at another position, but so far this year the AI has not played him anywhere except 3b. If the AI teams never teach guys new defensive positions, that is rather limiting to career development in historical leagues. If the AI teams won't teach players new positions, then I can definitely understand why some people are clamoring for guys playing all their career positions upon import. Can someone who has played many seasons of a historical replay, or someone with knowledge of how the AI engine decides these things, address this issue? Thanks in advance if anyone knows how this works.

08-06-2008, 01:57 AM	#14
BeachBum Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2007 Location: Copalis Beach, WA Posts: 192	I have never seen the AI "teach" a player a new position because of duplicated defensive abilities. I have seen the AI play players at positions they never have (nor should have) played during a game but it was because the AI pinch hit for the light hitting shortstop even though there is no other shortstop available on the roster. As a result, Yogi Berra ends up playing short. I don't think the AI is anywhere near sophisticated enough to recognize that it needs to move Pete Rose to 3rd to make room for Joe Morgan at 2nd. Let alone then moving him to left to make room for Ray Knight at 3rd. While this would certainly be great if the AI could/would do this, I don't see it happening in the near future. This seems like a huge leap to me.

08-06-2008, 09:21 AM	#15
rwd59 All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: LA (Lower Alabama) Posts: 923	Never really looked for answers to what you are asking. I do know that tons of players play different positions as their careers move along, just not always positions they actually played in their career.