Name Recommendations for 2nd NHL team in Southern Ontario

[darkenigma510]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I have no idea why the league and other owners (outside of Buffalo & MLSE) have been so steadfast in their opposition to Balsillie owning a team and moving it to southern Ontario. Does the league still hold the delusions that hockey is going to work long-term in some of the markets they've moved into?

The situation in Phoenix seems to be the closest Balsillie has gotten to becoming an owner, and it may still happen, there's just gigantic legal questions to be answered first. The one thing we can all assume is that the $212.5 Million offer from Balsillie is far above market value for the Coyotes franchise, and much more than what Chicago White Sox owner, Jerry Reinsdorf, was prepared to pay (Bettman was in Phoenix to approve the sale of the team to Reinsdorf before all this happened).

When current owner Jerry Moyes moved the team into Chapter 11, presumably after Balsillie approached him with his offer, he took the team and league into uncharted territory, AFAIK. The league appears to be arguing that Moyes had no right to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, but now that it is done, can it be undone? If it can't then unless someone tops Balsillie's offer (which is an unlikely outcome), for the benefit of the teams creditors, doesn't his offer have to be accepted?

The problem is, does an bankruptcy court have the right to okay the offer given the condition that the team must move to southern Ontario? The question is especially complicated when you take into account that the Balsllie offer is presumably so much higher than market calue. Does the court force the move? Or do the accept a lower offer, which keeps the team in Phoenix, but doesn't satisfy the creditors?

It's going to be very interesting how this plays out. How much longer can the NHL say no to someone who has the money to own a franchise, and has an interest in the hockey product he'll be buying?

I love it. I am guessing Balsillie will keep trying this until one day he either gets his franchise or Bettman does something that will cause the NHL to be sued. Either way I am enjoying the sideshow.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I have no idea why the league and other owners (outside of Buffalo & MLSE) have been so steadfast in their opposition to Balsillie owning a team and moving it to southern Ontario.

I would presume because neither of those teams wants any additional competition in "their" territory. Such is the problem with the closed league model.

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Does the league still hold the delusions that hockey is going to work long-term in some of the markets they've moved into?

Apparently yes. Or perhaps they (or more likely Commissioner Gary Bettman) don't want to admit it's been a mistake.

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

The problem is, does an bankruptcy court have the right to okay the offer given the condition that the team must move to southern Ontario?

I thought the whole question of a club owner having the right to move his club to a new city whether the league wanted him to or not was settled years ago when Oakland/Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders owner Al Davis won his case against the NFL. Or am I remembering the Davis case incorrectly?

[darkenigma510]

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Yeah, I get the PR aspect of it. But there seems to more than just a concern over the current market when the league and other owners talk about Ballsilie's attempts to own a team. Maybe part of that is due to Balsilie being so open about his attempts, something the league likes to keep underwraps, but the attitude was there even before he pulled the season ticket selling stunt.

GB likes his owners tightly wrapped around his fingers.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

GB likes his owners tightly wrapped around his fingers.

The Napoleon comparisons are just piling up aren't they?

As for how long they can keep him out? Until Bettman is either able to drive the league einto the group, the owners buy a clue and get rid of him, the fans leave en masse (even the traditionlists), or divine intervention arrives. Until them NHL fans are going to be stuck with this incompetent Emporer with no clothes.

[JTSMOOTH]

Maybe I'm just wearing my Phoenix Coyotes colored glasses, but I think hockey can and will be successful in Phoenix provided the team gets some decent ownership/management in place and gets some sort of concessions from the horrible lease deal they signed with the city of Glendale.

The team drew fans just fine prior to the lockout and this is considering they played in an arena that was a terrible fit for hockey.

It's not like the team is drawing 5k fans a game ala the Florida baseball teams. Granted they are not selling out, but they are still outdrawing 2 other teams in the NHL.

The reasons the Coyotes are in the mess they are in...

1. Terrible ownership/management over the last few years(Though I do like what GM Don Maloney has done since he came on board).

2. An awful lease deal they signed with the city of Glendale to get the new arena built after other proposals fell through.

3. The lockout.

4. The team has been bad for numerous seasons in a row.

If the team puts a good product on the ice, the team will thrive in Phoenix. I hope they are given the chance to do so.

NHL as a whole is down considerably in popularity since the lockout, which is too bad. I love the game.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by darkenigma510

I love it. I am guessing Balsillie will keep trying this until one day he either gets his franchise or Bettman does something that will cause the NHL to be sued. Either way I am enjoying the sideshow.

This is pretty much the two options I see as well. Balsillie has indicated in public comments that he thinks the NHL rules that are preventing him from acquiring a team are illegal, and I think he is prepared, at this point, to challenge them in court. If the NHL wants a legal fight over this they're going to get it, and from Bill Daley's most recent comments it appears that is the case.

It's going to be very interesting watching this play out over the next few months.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

Maybe I'm just wearing my Phoenix Coyotes colored glasses, but I think hockey can and will be successful in Phoenix provided the team gets some decent ownership/management in place and gets some sort of concessions from the horrible lease deal they signed with the city of Glendale.

The team drew fans just fine prior to the lockout and this is considering they played in an arena that was a terrible fit for hockey.

It's not like the team is drawing 5k fans a game ala the Florida baseball teams. Granted they are not selling out, but they are still outdrawing 2 other teams in the NHL.

The reasons the Coyotes are in the mess they are in...

1. Terrible ownership/management over the last few years(Though I do like what GM Don Maloney has done since he came on board).

2. An awful lease deal they signed with the city of Glendale to get the new arena built after other proposals fell through.

3. The lockout.

4. The team has been bad for numerous seasons in a row.

If the team puts a good product on the ice, the team will thrive in Phoenix. I hope they are given the chance to do so.

NHL as a whole is down considerably in popularity since the lockout, which is too bad. I love the game.

Overall attendance figures for the NHL have risen steadily each year since the lockout and are above what they were pre-lockout.

[Long_Long_Name]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

If the team puts a good product on the ice, the team will thrive in Phoenix. I hope they are given the chance to do so.

See, that might be a problem. Any team in the NHL can probably draw fans with a winning record. The problem is drawing fans when the team isn't winning. There will always be bad teams in the NHL, and the challenge is drawing fans even during bad times.

[JTSMOOTH]

Originally Posted by Long_Long_Name

See, that might be a problem. Any team in the NHL can probably draw fans with a winning record. The problem is drawing fans when the team isn't winning. There will always be bad teams in the NHL, and the challenge is drawing fans even during bad times.

Well thats true of any sport, teams who win are naturally going to draw well and teams who dont do well over long periods of time aren't.

The Coyotes play 4th fiddle out here in Arizona, maybe 5th behind Diamodbacks, Cardinals, Suns and Arizona State Football. It's probably always going to be that way. But even considering how terrible the team has been run, they still drew 13k fans a night on average. Not great, but I don't think thats terrible either.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

Well thats true of any sport, teams who win are naturally going to draw well and teams who dont do well over long periods of time aren't.

NOt always, especially in hockey....

[Joe Canadian]

Phoenix has never topped the average attendance (15,604) of it's inaugural season. This year that number would have put the team 26th in league attendance. In 2001-02, the last time the team made the playoffs the average attendance was 13,165.

I don't think the lockout made an impact on attendance either. The average attendance actually went up in the year after the lockout.

TV numbers from January showed that the Coyotes games, locally, were being viewed by a little over 9,000 households (Source: Washington Post). Now, that number is apparently up 100% from the previous year... so that means the number was at 4,500 households before. That's shockingly low.

Can a region really support a team with attendance and tv numbers that low?

Getting back to the legal battle. Now that the NHL has stripped Jerry Moyes of basically any responsibility of the team, where does that put a potential sale if the Chapter 11 filing is revoked, as the league wants it to be. Can the league than force a sale with a particular buyer without any input from Moyes? If the league can do that, I'd be curious to know how other league owners feel about that.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

NOt always, especially in hockey....

Not to be a typical Leafs fan, but just because the team hasn't won the Cup in decades doesn't mean the team hasn't see success in that time.

But anyways, the comment regarding the Leafs, and how they can draw the crowds they do even during awful years like this one, illustrates two things. One, that good hockey markets draw reasonable attendance levels even during bad years... and two how under served the southern Ontario hockey market is.

Part of the reason I want another team in southern Ontario is to provide some competition for the Leafs.

[JTSMOOTH]

The seating capacity of US Airways Center for Hockey was only about 16k max, which a good number of seats being restricted view seats. You could only see 3/4 of the ice.

Thats why they moved across town, which sadly lost them some fans who don't drive across town to see them as much as when they were centrally located.

I live in the are obviously and I'm just speaking on what I've seen in the area. If the team gets rid of the management, which appears to be happening whether they stay or move, the team can be successful. Will it ever rival teams like Detroit or Montreal in terms of rabid fans, absolutely not. But that does not mean the team can't be successful.

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

Phoenix has never topped the average attendance (15,604) of it's inaugural season. This year that number would have put the team 26th in league attendance. In 2001-02, the last time the team made the playoffs the average attendance was 13,165.

I don't think the lockout made an impact on attendance either. The average attendance actually went up in the year after the lockout.

TV numbers from January showed that the Coyotes games, locally, were being viewed by a little over 9,000 households (Source: Washington Post). Now, that number is apparently up 100% from the previous year... so that means the number was at 4,500 households before. That's shockingly low.

Can a region really support a team with attendance and tv numbers that low?

Getting back to the legal battle. Now that the NHL has stripped Jerry Moyes of basically any responsibility of the team, where does that put a potential sale if the Chapter 11 filing is revoked, as the league wants it to be. Can the league than force a sale with a particular buyer without any input from Moyes? If the league can do that, I'd be curious to know how other league owners feel about that.

[JTSMOOTH]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

NOt always, especially in hockey....

I didnt say ALWAYS, but in general teams who win put more fans in the seats than teams who don't.

[Joe Canadian]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

they still drew 13k fans a night on average. Not great, but I don't think thats terrible either.

I think most people would consider 13,000 fans a night as terrible. ESPN shows that the average attendance numbers this year were 14,875, that's 85% of capacity. Leaving 15% of the building empty every night, in addition to the horrible lease agreement they have... how is the team supposed to be successful, even under new ownership?

I'm sure a lot of this can be placed at the feet of bad ownership over the years, but when you're in a non-hockey market there is no room for mistakes.

[JTSMOOTH]

Obviously we can go back and forth all day and night. I want a team in Phoenix, you want them in Canada. We can spin stuff around all day long...

The terrible lease deal is a major problem. If they don't get some sort of concessions from the city of Glendale, the team will never be successful and may as well just move.

Rumors(granted its rumors and who knows whats true and whats not) are that the city was working with the proposed new ownership group that wanted to keep them in Glendale to make some concessions in order to keep them in Glendale. The city of Glendale obviously does not want to be stuck with a brand new stadium sitting empty 75% of the time.

But your right, they cannot be succesful in Phoenix without the city of Glendale giving them some help. That lease deal is killing the team.

Originally Posted by Joe Canadian

I think most people would consider 13,000 fans a night as terrible. ESPN shows that the average attendance numbers this year were 14,875, that's 85% of capacity. Leaving 15% of the building empty every night, in addition to the horrible lease agreement they have... how is the team supposed to be successful, even under new ownership?

I'm sure a lot of this can be placed at the feet of bad ownership over the years, but when you're in a non-hockey market there is no room for mistakes.

[kq76]

To those of you interested in this topic, you may also be interested in signing up at makeitseven.ca. I've gotten a couple emails from them the last couple days, the last of which Jim says he'll leave the team in Phoenix for a year if it's really true that there's no way they can schedule in Hamilton for the coming year.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by JTSMOOTH

Obviously we can go back and forth all day and night. I want a team in Phoenix, you want them in Canada. We can spin stuff around all day long...

The terrible lease deal is a major problem. If they don't get some sort of concessions from the city of Glendale, the team will never be successful and may as well just move.

Rumors(granted its rumors and who knows whats true and whats not) are that the city was working with the proposed new ownership group that wanted to keep them in Glendale to make some concessions in order to keep them in Glendale. The city of Glendale obviously does not want to be stuck with a brand new stadium sitting empty 75% of the time.

But your right, they cannot be succesful in Phoenix without the city of Glendale giving them some help. That lease deal is killing the team.

My understanding is that the Coyotes pay the City for each car that parks at the arena. That arrangement is unheard of in professional sport and combined with a bad lease agreement limits the ability of the franchise to generate income.

With all due respect to hockey fans in false markets, the 3-4 millon that live west and south of Toronto are a slam dunk market for hockey. The reason Bettman opposes Ballsille is that he considers the Canadian market captive and he wants to place an expansion franchise there so that it will generate income for the current owners in the NHL.

[CONN CHRIS]

The latest that I heard is that the 'new' name may be the Winnepeg Jets.

[alslammerz]

Originally Posted by RchW

The reason Bettman opposes Ballsille is that he considers the Canadian market captive and he wants to place an expansion franchise there so that it will generate income for the current owners in the NHL.

Exactly right. If he can charge $400-500 million that go directly to the league owners (if the CBA remains unchanged) and not to hockey's overall revenues, he'll take that option, and the rest of the owners will back him up on it. Particularly since that means adding another franchise for balance, which means earning around a $1 billion for the league's owners to divide amongst themselves. Which is why even if the NHL fails in their "we actually own the team now" argument in bankruptcy court, there will have to be another challenge from Balsille because they will argue that he's infringing on the Maple Leaf market or something of that sort.

The other question (possibly eventually) is where a Phoenix/Hamilton goes in the divisions.
I liked EC: HAM-TOR-OTT-MON-BUF, BOS-NYR-NYI-PHI-NJD, ATL-CAR-FLA-TBL-WAS
and WC: DET-PIT-CHI-COL-NAS, STL-COL-MIN-CAL-EDM, VAN-LAK-ANA-SJS-DAL.

As far as the name, since the league wants a second Toronto team, Balsille wants a team in Hamilton, and we no longer trust the NHL to do anything right, my buddies and I came up with the Toronto Ontarians of Hamilton (ala the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim).

Forgot to add, while I've thought of all this, as someone who's team was rumored to leave back in the day, I'd rather they stay in Phoenix.