Contract Bug - Page 3

PSUColonel · 12-27-2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

So anyway, for the time being, the DIY fix for this would be to manually remove players from the "cleared waivers" list in commish mode, right?

what does DIY mean? Moving the players will only work/help for a human player. You will still have a problem with AI controlled teams, unless you go through each team's waiver wire each day and remove them in commish mode. (which IMO is totally uncalled for especially since this wasn't a problem until the patch)

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 12-27-2011, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

what does DIY mean? Moving the players will only work/help for a human player. You will still have a problem with AI controlled teams, unless you go through each team's waiver wire each day and remove them in commish mode. (which IMO is totally uncalled for especially since this wasn't a problem until the patch)

DIY = do it yourself.

I'm not trying to pass value judgement on whether or not a fix is worth it. Just trying to clarify the scope of the problem. I also doubt you really need to do this every day to have a satisfactory effect since, as was mentioned by others, AI teams are probably not scrambling to re-sign their fringe players mid-season.

PSUColonel · 12-27-2011, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinnamon J. Scudworth

DIY = do it yourself.

I'm not trying to pass value judgement on whether or not a fix is worth it. Just trying to clarify the scope of the problem. I also doubt you really need to do this every day to have a satisfactory effect since, as was mentioned by others, AI teams are probably not scrambling to re-sign their fringe players mid-season.

You would be surprised at some of the players that get placed on waivers at times.

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 12-27-2011, 04:27 PM

Maybe so, but it seems like a low-probability concern until you get into the waiver trade period. I'll plan on checking the waiver lists every month or so in-game.

Ironic that all of this hubbub stems from an unintended consequence of a patch. It shows the challenge of stamping out every last bug, and perhaps something of a "be careful what you wish for" lesson.

PSUColonel · 12-27-2011, 04:58 PM

I'd be happy if it was the way it was before rather than this

John Madden · 12-27-2011, 05:12 PM

This is the OOTP cycle every year:

1) Beta team majorly drops the ball picking up bugs
2) New version is rushed to release
3) I vow to not buy another version until X, Y, and Z bugs (X and Y have probably been in the game since the 2006 rewrite) are fixed
4) My online leagues convert, and I buy it anyway
5) "We'll fix that next version"

sigh

RchW · 12-27-2011, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I think this is actually fairly serious. It means AI teams cannot sign/negotiate with any player who was ever placed on waivers during the course of a season.

There is still something wrong with the logic here. This is my understanding of how things work in my leagues.

The AI teams can only negotiate/sign free agents or offer extensions to their own players.

A player on another team who may have cleared waivers is off limits to any team (AI or Human)because he is still under contract to that team. No problem here.

All players who are released and become FA are removed from waivers. That includes all the players above that were previously off limits. No problem here.

Players who are traded are removed from waivers. That makes them signable by the receiving team. Again I see no problem here.

The waiver wire is cleared at the trade deadline (if it's active in the game) since trades after that require waivers. So on Aug 1 or whatever date for a short time, no one is on waivers. No problem with that and if a waiver trade is made the players involved are removed from waivers as indicated above.

Edit, waivers are wiped clean at the start of the playoffs. I just confirmed this in game. I'm also sure that waivers are wiped clean at the start of the regular season but have not confirmed this.

That leaves a very small subset of players which would only be players on the AI team that were put on waivers and cleared but not removed. These players are still under contract so there is little reason to want to negotiate a contract unless they are a pending FA. One would question the risk of putting a pending FA, especially a good one on waivers. The AI does strange things

This problem would last until the trade deadline (if activated) as indicated above. I still question the logic of putting a player on waivers while trying to negotiate an extension. It makes no sense but even if we stipulate this subset of players as a problem it is not even close to the extent claimed above.

To summarize this problem is limited to players already on each AI team still under contract, placed on waivers and who have cleared waivers.

The majority of these players are likely to be minor leaguers who are not yet minor league FA. Some may be minor league FA and others may be 40 man or 25 man roster guys. Of the 40 man and 25 man roster players any with less than 6 years MLB service are safe. The only players who present a risk to the AI team would be a pending FA that the AI wants to offer an extension.

This is my best look at it. I might be wrong. Please feel free to correct any flaws in the argument.

simcrazy · 12-27-2011, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Madden

This is the OOTP cycle every year:

1) Beta team majorly drops the ball picking up bugs
2) New version is rushed to release
3) I vow to not buy another version until X, Y, and Z bugs (X and Y have probably been in the game since the 2006 rewrite) are fixed
4) My online leagues convert, and I buy it anyway
5) "We'll fix that next version"

sigh

Right on. They need to fix what they have first - eliminating deviations real MLB game and transaction rules - and THEN add the frills.

PSUColonel · 12-27-2011, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

There is still something wrong with the logic here. This is my understanding of how things work in my leagues.

The AI teams can only negotiate/sign free agents or offer extensions to their own players.

A player on another team who may have cleared waivers is off limits to any team (AI or Human)because he is still under contract to that team. No problem here.

All players who are released and become FA are removed from waivers. That includes all the players above that were previously off limits. No problem here.

Players who are traded are removed from waivers. That makes them signable by the receiving team. Again I see no problem here.

The waiver wire is cleared at the trade deadline (if it's active in the game) since trades after that require waivers. So on Aug 1 or whatever date for a short time, no one is on waivers. No problem with that and if a waiver trade is made the players involved are removed from waivers as indicated above.

Edit, waivers are wiped clean at the start of the playoffs. I just confirmed this in game. I'm also sure that waivers are wiped clean at the start of the regular season but have not confirmed this.

That leaves a very small subset of players which would only be players on the AI team that were put on waivers and cleared but not removed. These players are still under contract so there is little reason to want to negotiate a contract unless they are a pending FA. One would question the risk of putting a pending FA, especially a good one on waivers. The AI does strange things

This problem would last until the trade deadline (if activated) as indicated above. I still question the logic of putting a player on waivers while trying to negotiate an extension. It makes no sense but even if we stipulate this subset of players as a problem it is not even close to the extent claimed above.

To summarize this problem is limited to players already on each AI team still under contract, placed on waivers and who have cleared waivers.

The majority of these players are likely to be minor leaguers who are not yet minor league FA. Some may be minor league FA and others may be 40 man or 25 man roster guys. Of the 40 man and 25 man roster players any with less than 6 years MLB service are safe. The only players who present a risk to the AI team would be a pending FA that the AI wants to offer an extension.

This is my best look at it. I might be wrong. Please feel free to correct any flaws in the argument.

One potential problem: The AI places a good player on waiver to test for a potential trade in the final year of a player's contract (usually very expensive contracts) doesn't get any nibbles, and eventually decides it will extend a contract to said player because the player is aging, and doesn't demand as much money now.

olivertheorem · 12-27-2011, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Madden

This is the OOTP cycle every year:
1) Beta team majorly drops the ball picking up bugs

Yes, let's slam the volunteers who serve on the beta team. Perhaps you could volunteer to assist them in picking up bugs for OOTP 13? I have considered doing so myself, though I don't know how much I'd be able to do with a baby in the apartment.

Point being, it is easy to deride the process, but in this case it is relatively simple to help fix the process, yet I think many who deride the process do not take part in being the solution.

Qwerty75 · 12-27-2011, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

One potential problem: The AI places a good player on waiver to test for a potential trade in the final year of a player's contract (usually very expensive contracts) doesn't get any nibbles, and eventually decides it will extend a contract to said player because the player is aging, and doesn't demand as much money now.

Remove all players off the list for cleared waivers at strategic points in the calendar: e.g., Sept. 1st, end of regular season, end of playoffs? This should give teams that want to re-sign strategic guys windows to get it done.

RchW · 12-27-2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

One potential problem: The AI places a good player on waiver to test for a potential trade in the final year of a player's contract (usually very expensive contracts) doesn't get any nibbles, and eventually decides it will extend a contract to said player because the player is aging, and doesn't demand as much money now.

That is the single instance of the problem that actually exists or has a potential effect on an AI team IMO. I acknowledge that in my post. It's not even close to....

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

I think this is actually fairly serious. It means AI teams cannot sign/negotiate with any player who was ever placed on waivers during the course of a season.

My reading of AI actions in the leagues I play is that they seem to be able to suss out declining value and are relatively successful at offering reduced contracts. That's anecdotal and raises questions about how the AI does this.

PSUColonel · 12-27-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qwerty75

Remove all players off the list for cleared waivers at strategic points in the calendar: e.g., Sept. 1st, end of regular season, end of playoffs? This should give teams that want to re-sign strategic guys windows to get it done.

yea...or Markus could just fix it...since he is doing so for OOTP 13 anyway

John Madden · 12-28-2011, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by olivertheorem

Yes, let's slam the volunteers who serve on the beta team. Perhaps you could volunteer to assist them in picking up bugs for OOTP 13? I have considered doing so myself, though I don't know how much I'd be able to do with a baby in the apartment.

Point being, it is easy to deride the process, but in this case it is relatively simple to help fix the process, yet I think many who deride the process do not take part in being the solution.

Been there, done that, won't do it again.

RchW · 12-28-2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qwerty75

Remove all players off the list for cleared waivers at strategic points in the calendar: e.g., Sept. 1st, end of regular season, end of playoffs? This should give teams that want to re-sign strategic guys windows to get it done.

The game already does this.

BusterKing · 12-28-2011, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

The game already does this.

Well I just checked my MLB2011 league (using latest roster that came with the game) and it shows 42 players in the "Cleared Waivers" status with Seattle having the most at 5. Date: September 16, 2011

To me this isn't acceptable, specially if it was caused by a patch in OOTP12.

PSUColonel · 12-28-2011, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Well I just checked my MLB2011 league (using latest roster that came with the game) and it shows 42 players in the "Cleared Waivers" status with Seattle having the most at 5. Date: September 16, 2011

To me this isn't acceptable, specially if it was caused by a patch in OOTP12.

Thank you.

Cinnamon J. Scudworth · 12-28-2011, 03:06 PM

I think RchW's observation, noted in the earlier post, was that the list was cleared at the beginning of the playoffs.

RchW · 12-28-2011, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Well I just checked my MLB2011 league (using latest roster that came with the game) and it shows 42 players in the "Cleared Waivers" status with Seattle having the most at 5. Date: September 16, 2011

To me this isn't acceptable, specially if it was caused by a patch in OOTP12.

This data without context is useless.

What is the contract status of Seattle's five players? If, for example, they are auto renewal type players then this is much ado about nothing.

Are there any of the 42 players who are pending major league FA?

PSUColonel · 12-28-2011, 04:02 PM

Rather than needlessly debating this...why don't we simply lobby Markus to fix it?

12-27-2011, 04:27 PM	#44
Cinnamon J. Scudworth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,119	Maybe so, but it seems like a low-probability concern until you get into the waiver trade period. I'll plan on checking the waiver lists every month or so in-game. Ironic that all of this hubbub stems from an unintended consequence of a patch. It shows the challenge of stamping out every last bug, and perhaps something of a "be careful what you wish for" lesson. __________________ "Sometimes, this is like going to a grocery store. You’ve got a list until you get to the check-out stand. And then you start reading People magazine, and all this other [stuff] ends up in the basket." -Sandy Alderson on the MLB offseason Last edited by Cinnamon J. Scudworth; 12-27-2011 at 04:30 PM.

12-28-2011, 03:06 PM	#58
Cinnamon J. Scudworth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 1,119	I think RchW's observation, noted in the earlier post, was that the list was cleared at the beginning of the playoffs. __________________ "Sometimes, this is like going to a grocery store. You’ve got a list until you get to the check-out stand. And then you start reading People magazine, and all this other [stuff] ends up in the basket." -Sandy Alderson on the MLB offseason

12-27-2011, 04:58 PM	#45
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,089 Blog Entries: 37	I'd be happy if it was the way it was before rather than this

12-27-2011, 05:12 PM	#46
John Madden Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 379 Infractions: 0/1 (1)	This is the OOTP cycle every year: 1) Beta team majorly drops the ball picking up bugs 2) New version is rushed to release 3) I vow to not buy another version until X, Y, and Z bugs (X and Y have probably been in the game since the 2006 rewrite) are fixed 4) My online leagues convert, and I buy it anyway 5) "We'll fix that next version" sigh

12-28-2011, 04:02 PM	#60
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,089 Blog Entries: 37	Rather than needlessly debating this...why don't we simply lobby Markus to fix it?