Contract Bug

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

What could possibly be cheaper than the minor league contract the player currently has?

Unless he is a pending minor league FA you need do nothing. The player has no freedom to move.

If he is a pending minor league FA waivers get wiped out at the trade deadline so he is signable at will in Sept to another minor league contract

Then you are competing for his services, as opposed to locking him up now.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

Then you are competing for his services, as opposed to locking him up now.

If he was of notable major league quality he would not have been outrighted to the minors in the first place.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

If he was of notable major league quality he would not have been outrighted to the minors in the first place.

At the time, but what if he is outrighted and then puts up monster numbers at AAA?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

At the time, but what if he is outrighted and then puts up monster numbers at AAA?

That suggests to me he is a great Triple-A player but, for whatever reason, is only, at best, a mediocre major league player. Or it could be he's just having a career year in the minors and will soon revert to his actual talent level.

In any case, as RchW pointed out, unless he's set to become a minor league free agent after the end of the season, you've got him under contract anyway. (And even better you can try to outright him as often as you want without consequence since, unlike in real life, an OOTP player does not have the choice to elect free agency rather than accept a second outright assignment in his career. A real player also has the right to refuse an outright assignment and elect free agency instead if he has three or more years of major league service.)

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That suggests to me he is a great Triple-A player but, for whatever reason, is only, at best, a mediocre major league player. Or it could be he's just having a career year in the minors and will soon revert to his actual talent level.

In any case, as RchW pointed out, unless he's set to become a minor league free agent after the end of the season, you've got him under contract anyway. (And even better you can try to outright him as often as you want without consequence since, unlike in real life, an OOTP player does not have the choice to elect free agency rather than accept a second outright assignment in his career. A real player also has the right to refuse an outright assignment and elect free agency instead if he has three or more years of major league service.)

I thought OOTP players do have right to refuse a demotion?

Maybe to you that is just a great AAA player (AAAA), but the AI's viewpoint may vary, the player could be young and improving, and this is obviously a bug.

It certainly doesn't help your case that the AI puts WAY too many players, including quality players, on waivers and DFAs.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

I thought OOTP players do have right to refuse a demotion?

A player with five or more years of major league service who is faced with being outrighted to the minors has three choices:

(1) Refuse the assignment and remain on the active roster.
(2) Refuse the assignment and elect free agency.
(3) Accept the assignment.

Players with less than five years but with three or more years of major league service, or those facing a second outright assignment in their career regardless of service time, can only choose either #2 or #3. Note that if a player chooses #2 his contract is voided and he no longer gets paid nor receives any termination pay (which is why some players will accept an outright assignment since it means they keep drawing their major league salary).

OOTP recreates the ability of a player with five or more years of service to reject an outright assignment and remain on the active roster. It does not recreate the choices available to a player with less than five years of service or facing a second career outright.

Originally Posted by simcrazy

It certainly doesn't help your case that the AI puts WAY too many players, including quality players, on waivers and DFAs.

That's a separate issue from whether one should be able to offer a contract extension to an outrighted player already under contract.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That's a separate issue from whether one should be able to offer a contract extension to an outrighted player already under contract.

It is, but what I'm saying is that the fact that the AI puts quality players on waivers/DFAs increases the chance that the AI may want to offer an extension to a player who was waived earlier that season. If waiving was less frequent and/or less quality players were waived, this issue would be less serious.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

Then you are competing for his services, as opposed to locking him up now.

No, you keep missing the point. FA is not declared until after the WS in November. The player is not on the market at all. You are not competing with anyone.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

No, you keep missing the point. FA is not declared until after the WS in November. The player is not on the market at all. You are not competing with anyone.

That doesn't change what I'm saying. If an impending free agent (who cleared waivers) cannot be negotiated with until he is a free agent, that is a problem.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

It is, but what I'm saying is that the fact that the AI puts quality players on waivers/DFAs increases the chance that the AI may want to offer an extension to a player who was waived earlier that season.

No evidence of quality players being put on waivers and not claimed has been offered. Not one single player. I've asked PSU Colonel repeatedly and I'll ask you, show me evidence of the problem you describe.

As for the bold. Waivers are wiped at least twice maybe three times per season. The players discussed are already under contract and the AI team has carte blanche to sign them, if they need to be signed. Of course 99.5% of them don't need to be signed as has been repeatedly shown.

If waiving was less frequent and/or less quality players were waived, this issue would be less serious.

Quality players would be claimed and disappear from waivers. Players not claimed are;

1. Not seen as worth it. Marginal. Minor leaguers. Certainly not candidates for any form of contract

2. Have contracts that other AI teams figure are not worth it

No evidence exists that either type of player would be in limbo or that an AI team is affected in any way.

Why all the talk, simply show what the problem is. I've shown what it isn't.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by RchW

No, you keep missing the point. FA is not declared until after the WS in November. The player is not on the market at all. You are not competing with anyone.

This was changed several years back too in real life. Prior to 2007 a minor league player would become a minor league free agent on October 15th. From 2007 onwards it was changed by MLB to the fifth day following the last day of the World Series. This effectively pushed back minor league free agency by 2-3 weeks.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

No evidence of quality players being put on waivers and not claimed has been offered. Not one single player. I've asked PSU Colonel repeatedly and I'll ask you, show me evidence of the problem you describe.

As for the bold. Waivers are wiped at least twice maybe three times per season. The players discussed are already under contract and the AI team has carte blanche to sign them, if they need to be signed. Of course 99.5% of them don't need to be signed as has been repeatedly shown.



Quality players would be claimed and disappear from waivers. Players not claimed are;

1. Not seen as worth it. Marginal. Minor leaguers. Certainly not candidates for any form of contract

2. Have contracts that other AI teams figure are not worth it

No evidence exists that either type of player would be in limbo or that an AI team is affected in any way.

Why all the talk, simply show what the problem is. I've shown what it isn't.

What constitutes a quality player or what player would be worthwhile is SUBJECTIVE. What is OBJECTIVE is that in real baseball you can negotiate with a previously waived player and in OOTP you cannot. Markus himself has agreed it is a bug!

[RchW]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

That doesn't change what I'm saying. If an impending free agent (who cleared waivers) cannot be negotiated with until he is a free agent, that is a problem.

Show me such a player. I'm into my second season looking for this and have not found it yet.

Also you have already been told that waivers are wiped, so no pending FA would be blocked from negotiation.

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

Show me such a player. I'm into my second season looking for this and have not found it yet.

Also you have already been told that waivers are wiped, so no pending FA would be blocked from negotiation.

The pending is blocked from negotiation prior to the FA period, that is the whole point.

Here is a player (I had to look at 2 teams before I found him):

Rodrigo Encarnacion. Second base rating is 88. Hitting .329/.396/.537 through 82 ABs in AAA.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

What constitutes a quality player or what player would be worthwhile is SUBJECTIVE. What is OBJECTIVE is that in real baseball you can negotiate with a previously waived player and in OOTP you cannot. Markus himself has agreed it is a bug!

No he said that the mechanical issue that prevents AI team from negotiation with players who have cleared waivers must be fixed. I agree but it is not urgent.

I'm simply pointing out that the possibility of an actual problem resulting from this is infinitesimal. The extent of the problem was exaggerated beyond all belief and I have showed detailed evidence that the problem is basically non-existent.

You and others who seem to think that just saying a problem exists is ok have been challenged to show any evidence and have failed to post even one player affected.

To paraphrase Jerry Maguire, "show me the evidence".

[simcrazy]

Originally Posted by RchW

No he said that the mechanical issue that prevents AI team from negotiation with players who have cleared waivers must be fixed. I agree but it is not urgent.

I'm simply pointing out that the possibility of an actual problem resulting from this is infinitesimal. The extent of the problem was exaggerated beyond all belief and I have showed detailed evidence that the problem is basically non-existent.

You and others who seem to think that just saying a problem exists is ok have been challenged to show any evidence and have failed to post even one player affected.

To paraphrase Jerry Maguire, "show me the evidence".

The "mechanical issue" is exactly what we're talking about. I just showed you the evidence. It took me 2 teams to find a player. Here's another, on the third team I looked at:

Carl Clark. 2.93 ERA and 25/8 K/BB through 30.2 IP at AAA.

[SandMan]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

Carl Clark. 2.93 ERA and 25/8 K/BB through 30.2 IP at AAA.

Screen shot please....

[simcrazy]

Another one, also on the 3rd team I checked:

Cong Ta. 2.70 ERA 1.28 WHIP 7/2 K/BB in 13.1 IP. Relief pitcher. My scout has him at 43/62/47 (out of 100) - not a superstar for sure, but useful enough that I may want to give a MLB deal for next year on the cheap. Especially if he were promoted later in the year and did well.

[SandMan]

Originally Posted by simcrazy

Rodrigo Encarnacion. Second base rating is 88. Hitting .329/.396/.537 through 82 ABs in AAA.

Screen shot please....

[simcrazy]

How do I do a screenshot?