Automatic transactions for 19th century

BaseballMan · 02-13-2012, 01:38 PM

Is there any way this could be added to the Transaction file. This would be fantastic. To me its almost like the last ingrediant. Sure there may be some minor things but this would help a lot. We cam already have it where players go to their correct teams. Expansion is automatic. Even easier if you just put the UA, PL in the NL. Using the as played schedules help a lot too.
But i dont know who else would be intetrsted in automatic trades for 19th cenyury leagues

Spritze · 02-13-2012, 02:55 PM

They are in Transaction database. I know because I added them last year.

The challenge with implementation is that currently OOTP is ahistorical when it comes to Teams and Leagues so the Transactions don't work and won't unless this structure challenge is fixed in OOTP14. It has already been turned down for OOTP13.

BaseballMan · 02-13-2012, 03:28 PM

Not sure i understand completely. Are you saying its a problem of players not going to the correct teams? If players can be drafted to their correct teams why cant they
be traded to the correct team? Sorry im just not sure what u ment.

Spritze · 02-13-2012, 11:39 PM

The correct teams do not exist in OOTP out of the box pre-1901. OOTP uses FAKE teams. Therefore transactions of any kind cannot work.

Biggio509 · 02-14-2012, 12:38 AM

Some of the teams are real.

Until the engine can handle contraction properly then it has to have the quasi-historical setup of AL and NL pre-1901.

Essentially the out of the box setup has some real teams for 1871 and some that don't exist yet. So you can't match the transactions to the right teams. The Middletown Mansfield, for instance, don't exist if you use create historical league. To my knowledge there is no way to use automatic real transactions unless you create a historical league and choose real transactions.

BaseballMan · 02-14-2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

The correct teams do not exist in OOTP out of the box pre-1901. OOTP uses FAKE teams. Therefore transactions of any kind cannot work.

True but we both know the database can be edited so that the real teams do appear and players are drafted to their team automatically. Only problem is starting from years in which their were odd number of teams. But a quick start could be made for those years. Why have fake teams when you can have the real ones?

BaseballMan · 02-14-2012, 07:22 AM

Last year i had a spreadsheet for all trades. But other than manually making the transations all the historical team changes went pretty smooth. About the only minor problem was playoffs but i just disabled it and all star game.

Spritze · 02-14-2012, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Why have fake teams when you can have the real ones?

Because that is how Markus designed the 1800's (with help from Garlon).

I'd really like to see true 19th century play myownselves. It just is not going to happen with OOTP 13. Instead we get to fart around with the aboriginal unhistorical constipation that is included out-of-the box with OOTP. That is just the way it is.

BaseballMan · 02-14-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Because that is how Markus designed the 1800's (with help from Garlon).

I'd really like to see true 19th century play myownselves. It just is not going to happen with OOTP 13. Instead we get to fart around with the aboriginal unhistorical constipation that is included out-of-the box with OOTP. That is just the way it is.

I dont follow what Markus would have to do to make this work. Isnt it the same as having automatic transaction for modern leagues. I understand Gaarlon made the database so it would work but that was before we figured out we could have automatic expansion and players drafted to original teams teams. Now that we know that it seems to me its only a matter of fine tuning.
Players may have things like disabled playoffs but isnt the point of a historical league to strive for historical accuracy. What would be more accurate than players going to correct teams and playing as played schedules, no all allstar game etc. Of course players could always change it but we would have automatic transactions.
Sorry i just dont understand what Markus would have to do as i am no programmer but it just seems like since we can have 19th century players go to their original team it should be the same for transaction. Folded teams shouldnt matter as a player is gonna go to his new team or sitting out the year. A player isnt gonna be playing for a folded team.

Maybe im just a naive.

Spritze · 02-15-2012, 12:51 AM

Until OOTP has Real Teams and Leagues pre-1901 out-of-the-box the transaction issue is moot.

That is as plain as I can put it.

Le Grande Orange · 02-15-2012, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I dont follow what Markus would have to do to make this work.

Because in the 19th century leagues are created and folded, clubs are created and folded. From 1901 onwards neither of those things happen in MLB, and OOTP is set up to handle from 1901 onwards. Which means it can't handle leagues and teams coming into and going out of existence in a historical league.

When that is addressed then a much more accurate 19th century baseball presentation will be possible.

BaseballMan · 02-15-2012, 01:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

Until OOTP has Real Teams and Leagues pre-1901 out-of-the-box the transaction issue is moot.

That is as plain as I can put it.

Well yeah i understand that. But nothings gonna get done unless we do it.
Markus probably has too much else to focus on. And lets face it we wouldnt have 19th century play if you and Garlon had not representitive our voice to Markus.
So why not do the same here?
If we can have real transactions along with as played schedules then teams should not run into the not enough players on the roster.

If you switched a modern team nane with a 19th century what is the difference? Abbreviations? But we know Al or Nl will take care of that.

BaseballMan · 02-15-2012, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Because in the 19th century leagues are created and folded, clubs are created and folded. From 1901 onwards neither of those things happen in MLB, and OOTP is set up to handle from 1901 onwards. Which means it can't handle leagues and teams coming into and going out of existence in a historical league.

When that is addressed then a much more accurate 19th century baseball presentation will be possible.

Thats not correct though. It can handle clubs folding. The abbreviations juat have to be edited in the database. Now i can understand players having to adjust league settings but i dont see why transactions cant be done. I can run a league and have the actual teams for each year and players going to their original teams. I dont get the we cant do it cause teams folded argument. Its only because we havent made the adjustments in the database.

Le Grande Orange · 02-15-2012, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Thats not correct though. It can handle clubs folding.

No major league club has folded since 1899, the year in which Louisville, Baltimore, Cleveland, and Washington were dropped from the NL. Clubs may have changed locations (and consequently abbreviations) but the franchise themselves are still around.

BaseballMan · 02-15-2012, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

No major league club has folded since 1899, the year in which Louisville, Baltimore, Cleveland, and Washington were dropped from the NL. Clubs may have changed locations (and consequently abbreviations) but the franchise themselves are still around.

I think you misunderstood me. What i ment was the game can handle 19th century expansion and teams folding.

Spritze · 02-15-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I think you misunderstood me. What i ment was the game can handle 19th century expansion and teams folding.

Yes, I too think it can handle teams folding as you note BUT Markus says it can't. He must know something we don't.

Leagues folding and having 1 or 3 leagues running instead of 2 is a big bugaboo though.

So is the even number of teams thing.
The interesting fix for that in an 1871 start is that there really was a 14th team. They just never bothered to play a game until 1872. Using real schedules they simply finish 0 - 0.

BaseballMan · 02-15-2012, 06:02 PM

Well the only problem with odd number teams is the 1st year. We can create quick start leagues for that. As far as other leagues, just pit the UA, PL as a western division in the NL since the AA had odd number of teams in those years.

Spritze · 02-15-2012, 06:40 PM

1871 is always the year I start with. It has an odd number of teams.
I simply add the missing team to the teams.csv.

The things you keep mentioning are work-arounds. Transactions won't work with work-arounds.

The 19th Century needs fixing.

BaseballMan · 02-15-2012, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritze

1871 is always the year I start with. It has an odd number of teams.
I simply add the missing team to the teams.csv.

The things you keep mentioning are work-arounds. Transactions won't work with work-arounds.

The 19th Century needs fixing.

True but even the way it comes with the game is a work-around
Im not following why players cant be traded or released if they can be drafted to their original teams. If a team folds then the player is gonna be released until his new team is scheduled tp play. But the key would be using ad played schedules. Wouldnt work if you use actual schedule because a team may have folded after 9 games and another didnt appear till the 48th game of the season. But with as played schedules its more likely a player will be available.
I guess its hard because i cant see whats in those historical files to have a clearer understanding.
Not trying to be difficult but just not following.

AESP_pres · 02-15-2012, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Im not following why players cant be traded or released if they can be drafted to their original teams.

Don't worry you aren't alone.

I can't see why if the transactions are already in the database and if we use the same structure, league, team and team abbreviation for those years real transaction wouldn't be possible for the 19th century. I understand it won't work with the made in game structure as the structure is fictional, but if we recreate the NA, AA, UA, PL, NL and AL as they were why not

02-13-2012, 01:38 PM	#1
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,404	Automatic transactions for 19th century Is there any way this could be added to the Transaction file. This would be fantastic. To me its almost like the last ingrediant. Sure there may be some minor things but this would help a lot. We cam already have it where players go to their correct teams. Expansion is automatic. Even easier if you just put the UA, PL in the NL. Using the as played schedules help a lot too. But i dont know who else would be intetrsted in automatic trades for 19th cenyury leagues

02-13-2012, 02:55 PM	#2
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	They are in Transaction database. I know because I added them last year. The challenge with implementation is that currently OOTP is ahistorical when it comes to Teams and Leagues so the Transactions don't work and won't unless this structure challenge is fixed in OOTP14. It has already been turned down for OOTP13. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

02-13-2012, 11:39 PM	#4
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	The correct teams do not exist in OOTP out of the box pre-1901. OOTP uses FAKE teams. Therefore transactions of any kind cannot work. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

02-15-2012, 12:51 AM	#10
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	Until OOTP has Real Teams and Leagues pre-1901 out-of-the-box the transaction issue is moot. That is as plain as I can put it. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

02-15-2012, 06:40 PM	#18
Spritze OOTP Historical Czar Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Bothell Wa Posts: 7,253	1871 is always the year I start with. It has an odd number of teams. I simply add the missing team to the teams.csv. The things you keep mentioning are work-arounds. Transactions won't work with work-arounds. The 19th Century needs fixing. __________________ It's madness, madness, I tell you! For the love of God, don't do it!

02-13-2012, 03:28 PM	#3
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,404	Not sure i understand completely. Are you saying its a problem of players not going to the correct teams? If players can be drafted to their correct teams why cant they be traded to the correct team? Sorry im just not sure what u ment.

02-14-2012, 12:38 AM	#5
Biggio509 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,027	Some of the teams are real. Until the engine can handle contraction properly then it has to have the quasi-historical setup of AL and NL pre-1901. Essentially the out of the box setup has some real teams for 1871 and some that don't exist yet. So you can't match the transactions to the right teams. The Middletown Mansfield, for instance, don't exist if you use create historical league. To my knowledge there is no way to use automatic real transactions unless you create a historical league and choose real transactions.

02-14-2012, 07:22 AM	#7
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,404	Last year i had a spreadsheet for all trades. But other than manually making the transations all the historical team changes went pretty smooth. About the only minor problem was playoffs but i just disabled it and all star game.

02-15-2012, 06:02 PM	#17
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,404	Well the only problem with odd number teams is the 1st year. We can create quick start leagues for that. As far as other leagues, just pit the UA, PL as a western division in the NL since the AA had odd number of teams in those years.