New Pitching Model

[Spanky]

Markus, if they do I never notice it. I always throw in a couple guys into the bullpen in the 5th inning and they are as fresh as flower when they come into the game in the 8th or 9th inning. I have never once noticed any loss of stamina from any reliever. If I am wrong on this issue, can you tell me how I can tell if they are getting tired? And, if the game already includes this feature, could you possibly make it more pronounced and maybe even have some indicator telling me their strength is diminishing?

Btw, I could not resist signing up for OOTP13 even though I only play a few dozen games anymore because I don't get the feeling that I have to do much to manager the bullpen.

Spanky

[Spanky]

Can you post the website where we used to download all of the player stats for each team each year and then import them into OOTP? I can't remember the name.

Spanky

[rudel.dietrich]

If a team typically has 5 starters and 7 relievers, then how can 90% of pitchers end up as relievers?
Or am I missing something?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

If a team typically has 5 starters and 7 relievers, then how can 90% of pitchers end up as relievers?
Or am I missing something?

We're talking about the draft class.

[DustinthePOWERHOUSE]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

I agree with this but think it should be taken a step further. Eliminate pre-determined roles altogether. No SP, MR, or CL, just a P designation.

One can look at a kids stats to see what role he played in collage/HS. One can look at # of pitches, quality of pitches, stamina, competition, etc to make a determination on where to try him at in rookie ball. As he progresses, your assesment of him also does.

This would be more realistic imo. I realize you get the odd Strasburg type who skips the minors, but those are very few and far between.

I'm no expert, and don't take this the wrong way, but is that really how it's done? I'm pretty sure when a pitcher is playing in college it's somewhat known whether he'll be a SP or a RP. Maybe not 100 percent sure, but I don't know about "eliminating pre-determined roles altogether."

Saying someone is a pitcher in a scouting report frankly isn't a good evaluation of a player. Whether he's a SP, RP, CP or whatever he is. Whether he turns out to be a starter, reliever or closer is a completely different issue, but truthfully the speculation (or scouting report of sorts) of a player is exactly what the game is. It speculates the position of the player (now done better in the new game because some of the SP may turn into RP's and visa versa) and uses a scouting report of sorts to realize that. So essentially it's already being done just based on the game which may take away something for you? But honestly seems to be necessary considering few? (I would say) pitchers go into the draft without any sort of speculation/scouting report based on what type of pitcher they would be?

Am I completely off here or does that kind of make sense?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by DustinthePOWERHOUSE

Am I completely off here or does that kind of make sense?

Makes sense to me Roles need to stay, it's just more user friendly.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by boshk

i agree with the short comments, just because they are short, they are just as likely to pitch 9 innings a game 200 innings a year as someone who is 7 feet tall.

I'd actually think (without any evidence) that very tall players (over say 6'5") are more likely to get lingering leg / back injuries.

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Shorter pitchers (< 5"11') generally get generated with lower stamina (of course there are exceptions though) and have a worse chance to develop more stamina in the future.

I hope you'll reconsider this feature. There seems to be no evidence at all that height has any effect on stamina. And how does this idea factor in to historical baseball? Don't have data to back it up (Time.com sez "Skeletons and written records show that human beings today are inches taller than humans just a century or two ago." if that means anything), but my understanding is that the general population is taller now than it was 100 years ago. And yet in those days it was common for these generally shorter starting pitchers to go 9. The idea of tying stamina to height really doesn't seem to have anything going for it.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by spitfire

I hope you'll reconsider this feature. There seems to be no evidence at all that height has any effect on stamina. And how does this idea factor in to historical baseball? Don't have data to back it up (Time.com sez "Skeletons and written records show that human beings today are inches taller than humans just a century or two ago." if that means anything), but my understanding is that the general population is taller now than it was 100 years ago. And yet in those days it was common for these generally shorter starting pitchers to go 9. The idea of tying stamina to height really doesn't seem to have anything going for it.

This applies to generated players, no imported historical players.

Also, there are several studies out there proving that taller pitchers (with normal/higher BMI's) do indeed have an advantage in stamina comparen to small/thing guys.

[jmount78]

I have to say that the move to more SP in the draft is a game changer. I really like how it will affect the draft and my decision making process.

I won't even pretend to know how you guys can make this game so in-depth with programming, but to include the little things like stamina and height are incredible to me. By the way, if you need someone with programming skills on the Commodor Vic-20, I will be there for you.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by DustinthePOWERHOUSE

I'm no expert, and don't take this the wrong way, but is that really how it's done? I'm pretty sure when a pitcher is playing in college it's somewhat known whether he'll be a SP or a RP. Maybe not 100 percent sure, but I don't know about "eliminating pre-determined roles altogether."

Saying someone is a pitcher in a scouting report frankly isn't a good evaluation of a player. Whether he's a SP, RP, CP or whatever he is. Whether he turns out to be a starter, reliever or closer is a completely different issue, but truthfully the speculation (or scouting report of sorts) of a player is exactly what the game is. It speculates the position of the player (now done better in the new game because some of the SP may turn into RP's and visa versa) and uses a scouting report of sorts to realize that. So essentially it's already being done just based on the game which may take away something for you? But honestly seems to be necessary considering few? (I would say) pitchers go into the draft without any sort of speculation/scouting report based on what type of pitcher they would be?

Am I completely off here or does that kind of make sense?

Basically that's what I was saying. You can look at what a pitcher was used as in college by his stat lines. Then make your determination from there. But yes, I can see the need to define SP and RP.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

This applies to generated players, no imported historical players.

Also, there are several studies out there proving that taller pitchers (with normal/higher BMI's) do indeed have an advantage in stamina comparen to small/thing guys.

Well it all depends how much value you have applied for your concept in OOTP.

Hope that it doesn't apply all the time since history indicates that we did have some great sp under 6' tall:

The 12 Best MLB Pitchers Ever Under Six Feet Tall | Bleacher Report

[sherdog1]

The new pitching model is awesome, and clears up some of the things that annoyed me about the game. The better star ratings for the relievers, the contracts, and the draft class improvements are going to really help.

As far as the "live bullpen" discussion goes, I've never noticed it either. I have tended to just let guys sit in the pen forever and haven't noticed them gassing out quickly. Could we get some kind of meter or pop up message about a reliever tiring in the pen or something?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Well it all depends how much value you have applied for your concept in OOTP.

Hope that it doesn't apply all the time since history indicates that we did have some great sp under 6' tall:

The 12 Best MLB Pitchers Ever Under Six Feet Tall | Bleacher Report

Of course it won't apply to all pitchers, there will be plenty of exceptions. It's just that there is a slightly bigger chance for small / thin guys to have less stamina.

[turkeybird86]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Well it all depends how much value you have applied for your concept in OOTP.

Hope that it doesn't apply all the time since history indicates that we did have some great sp under 6' tall:

The 12 Best MLB Pitchers Ever Under Six Feet Tall | Bleacher Report

8 out of 12 of those are 5'11. I know I'm splitting hairs here, but that's only 4 our of twelve that Markus was talking about. And one was a reliever, and another two were deadball pitchers. I think this is something we should wait and see before we start getting angry about it. It's just stamina not about "greatness".

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by turkeybird86

8 out of 12 of those are 5'11. I know I'm splitting hairs here, but that's only 4 our of twelve that Markus was talking about. And one was a reliever, and another two were deadball pitchers. I think this is something we should wait and see before we start getting angry about it. It's just stamina not about "greatness".

Certainly not angry. I was just concerned about how it would be implemented and I am satisfied with the way Markus explained it.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

This applies to generated players, no imported historical players.

Also, there are several studies out there proving that taller pitchers (with normal/higher BMI's) do indeed have an advantage in stamina comparen to small/thing guys.

Not to beat this issue to death, but do you have a link to some of these studies?

Also, how much of a difference are we talking in OOTP? Is it like taller pitchers are more likely to be created with a 7 or 8 (1-10 scale) stamina and short one more around 5 - 6 or will the difference in stamina be miniscule?

And what is considered tall/short in OOTP? 6 ft and above for tall and 5'11" and below for short?

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by spitfire

I hope you'll reconsider this feature. There seems to be no evidence at all that height has any effect on stamina. And how does this idea factor in to historical baseball? Don't have data to back it up (Time.com sez "Skeletons and written records show that human beings today are inches taller than humans just a century or two ago." if that means anything), but my understanding is that the general population is taller now than it was 100 years ago. And yet in those days it was common for these generally shorter starting pitchers to go 9. The idea of tying stamina to height really doesn't seem to have anything going for it.

Where as SABR seems to support what you are saying you should note 100 years ago is no real comparison. Balls were different and it was easier to put stuff on them. The game was a lot slap chop hitters and although some may have had power the strategy was more about placing hits and hit and run than long balls. A pitcher didn't have to be as accurate there was a lot lower chance of a HR if you threw one over the heart of the plate. The argument still makes sense though.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Not to beat this issue to death, but do you have a link to some of these studies?

Also, how much of a difference are we talking in OOTP? Is it like taller pitchers are more likely to be created with a 7 or 8 (1-10 scale) stamina and short one more around 5 - 6 or will the difference in stamina be miniscule?

And what is considered tall/short in OOTP? 6 ft and above for tall and 5'11" and below for short?

I agree with the arguments. Maybe stamina is not quite what we think of as what height would affect yet it makes sense for the game. Taller pitchers have some advantages. The advantage is probably more on stuff. A lot of people seemed to think Randy Johnson's size helped him on the mound. So if there is an apparent correlation between height and being a SP the game is getting it right here even if it stamina is the wrong mechanism. Stamina might be the easiest way to convey this without mucking up RPs and CLs.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by ike121212

I've been hoping for this kind of change ever since the move to individual pitches. I can't wait to try it. It's a true game-changer for me.


Does height really have a relationship to stam or effectiveness? Seems questionable, so I poked around a little bit. No big surprise that SABR explored the topic.


Does a Pitcher's Height Matter

"As you can see in table 1 (Starting Pitching Effectiveness), the data show no evidence of a statistically significant correlation, for starting pitchers, between height (in inches) and any of the customary measures of pitching effectiveness."

The crux of the problem with the paper.
" It is possible, regardless of the findings of this article, that there is a correlation between height and a player’s effectiveness or durability at lower levels, but I do not address the issue here, because of insufficient data and confounding variables, such as social pressures that convince shorter people to play positions other than pitcher. " What endgames data shows is that most pitchers are 5'10 to 6'2. With this little difference in height I don't think you are going to see a lot of variance. Again this goes back to the quotation. Shorter guys just don't play pitcher at lower levels. Therefore you don't see guys like 5'6" Jose Altuve playing pitcher. The modern athlete is of at least average height for the most part. Height differences would not be expected to be show at MILB/MLB level because there is not much variation.

Like I said before I think the game is getting it right but maybe not through the correct mechanism.