International Scouting

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by byzeil

I think if it couldn't be done as bonuses it should have been left the way it was. Having to give them a major league contract, using up their 3 options, and then having to waive them seems kind of harsh when most will not be ready for major league action before their options are up (at least based on their player development in v12).

I have to agree. If this happens frequently, even 50% of the time with 16-18 year old international prospects, then this basically negates the usefulness of finding these hidden players. At that point, they are essentially useless as anything other than trade bait, unless they develop at an astounding pace. If the full solution couldn't have been implemented, then I wish it had been left alone.

If signing bonuses as a whole are too problematic, perhaps a different contract type, such as "Minor League for International" could be created, where the total contract value is negotiated like a MLB deal, but the MLB roster requirements of a regular MLB contract do not apply. That would potentially simulate the signing bonus setup without having to carve out some kind of "signing bonus" code within every contract, in case that is the problem making the coding difficult.

[cody8200]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

I have to agree. If this happens frequently, even 50% of the time with 16-18 year old international prospects, then this basically negates the usefulness of finding these hidden players. At that point, they are essentially useless as anything other than trade bait, unless they develop at an astounding pace. If the full solution couldn't have been implemented, then I wish it had been left alone.

If signing bonuses as a whole are too problematic, perhaps a different contract type, such as "Minor League for International" could be created, where the total contract value is negotiated like a MLB deal, but the MLB roster requirements of a regular MLB contract do not apply. That would potentially simulate the signing bonus setup without having to carve out some kind of "signing bonus" code within every contract, in case that is the problem making the coding difficult.

I disagree. This minor league contract stuff was killing online leagues where inattentive owners were letting these guys go to free agency market and they were only getting minor league deals. Even worse, the best teams would automatically always get the prospects making their team even stronger going forward.

Not to mention, I signed a 3 star prospect for a minor league contract yesterday so not all of them want major league contracts.

[cody8200]

Originally Posted by injury log

I haven't seen how this is actually working in OOTP at the moment, but I've been thinking about this, and given that it's impossible to implement a signing bonus system for teenage international signings, I don't think it's so bad if occasionally these guys request big league contracts, provided:

* it happens infrequently

* the players requesting MLB contracts are on the older side - the 18 year olds, not the 16 year olds

* the AI teams understand the importance of keeping top prospects and don't waive these players

If you do find a top 18 year old prospect who requests an MLB contract, that presents you with an interesting decision. The player will be out of options by age 22, so you'll probably need to carry him on your big league roster before he's ready. So you have to weigh the value of the roster spot (both the 40-man spot, and eventually the 25-man spot) and the salary you'll pay against the value of the prospect. Of course, you may be able to trade the player, though his contract will diminish his value slightly. In any case, that seems more interesting, from a gameplay perspective, than what happens in OOTP-12, where international scouting is too cheap and too easy.

Now, if AI teams end up signing these guys, then putting them on waivers once they run out of options (or before), even if they still have monster potential, then that's a huge problem, and it would be better to either fix the AI or eliminate these kinds of contract demands. But if the only problem is that the human player has to make some difficult decisions, well, that doesn't seem like a problem at all to me.

+1 to all of this. It is important that it be infrequent but it should be a decision that you need to take into account long term. If you don't think he is worth what he is asking, you could let him go to the free agent market and allow all of the other teams to bid on him as well and see if you can get him for less.

[rjl518]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Right. I wanted to add this late in OOTP 13 development, but unfortunately this proved to be much more complicated that I thought because it would require changes in all sorts of places in the code. But I'll tackle this again someday...

Its okay Markus...after all the great work you have done...take a vacation on me!

[PSUColonel]

Ok...so what exactly are the major differences between International free agents and "hidden players" in this version? Contract offers?, age? ability? etc...

[Marinersfan51]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Ok...so what exactly are the major differences between International free agents and "hidden players" in this version? Contract offers?, age? ability? etc...

Yes, its the same as in past versions but more hidden players are demanding major league contracts

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by cody8200

I disagree. This minor league contract stuff was killing online leagues where inattentive owners were letting these guys go to free agency market and they were only getting minor league deals. Even worse, the best teams would automatically always get the prospects making their team even stronger going forward.

Not to mention, I signed a 3 star prospect for a minor league contract yesterday so not all of them want major league contracts.

Isn't the bolded a user problem, not a design issue? Are only the best teams "automatically" getting those prospects due to those teams having the more attentive owners, or is there some other mechanism that you are talking about?

I understand that not all of them want MLB contracts, but I'm curious as to how many do, and what ages they tend to be. I'd argue that even a 5 star 16-year-old prospect should not be demanding a MLB deal. 19+ is a different story, so my level of dissatisfaction with this setup is dependent on this further information. Hence my initial distinction in my post that you quoted, 50% or more of 16-18 year-old prospects requiring MLB deals would be what I'd consider to be unreasonable.

I pre-ordered, but I am waiting to convert my leagues until I see what changes I need to adjust to, and/or what bugs need to be worked out. This is a potentially major issue for my current (started in 2011 season with OOTP 12) league, so I'm wondering what the scope of the change is, but I am dependent on those of you currently playing in 13 to share said info.

[OzzieFan]

Originally Posted by JMDurron

I have to agree. If this happens frequently, even 50% of the time with 16-18 year old international prospects, then this basically negates the usefulness of finding these hidden players. At that point, they are essentially useless as anything other than trade bait, unless they develop at an astounding pace. If the full solution couldn't have been implemented, then I wish it had been left alone.

If signing bonuses as a whole are too problematic, perhaps a different contract type, such as "Minor League for International" could be created, where the total contract value is negotiated like a MLB deal, but the MLB roster requirements of a regular MLB contract do not apply. That would potentially simulate the signing bonus setup without having to carve out some kind of "signing bonus" code within every contract, in case that is the problem making the coding difficult.

In my experience so far it happens to every player I find. And it usually ends up with a bunch of 20 current 40+ potential guys sitting in Free agency demanding millions because no one will sign them.

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by OzzieFan

In my experience so far it happens to every player I find. And it usually ends up with a bunch of 20 current 40+ potential guys sitting in Free agency demanding millions because no one will sign them.

This is what I would consider to be unreasonable, possibly even "broken", if it can be confirmed by the observations of others.

Everything we are seeing this early with a new release is likely to be related to small sample sizes on the individual level, so I feel that the only way to really get a grasp of how much of an issue this is would be for more people to share their observations.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Speaking of international scouting/hidden players.

Shoudnt guys from Puerto Rico and Canada be going to the first-year player draft instead of being a hidden talent?

I would expect most of those hidden players to be from DR, Venezuela and even sime from Asia.

I just signed two young prospects from Canada and PR and just found that to be wierd considering the rules.

[Rand]

Small sample size, but the 3 international players I found all asked for Major League contracts too. One of them only 16yrs old which seems a little dubious.

Not sure a 16yr old no matter how good is likely to be pushing for a 4M + MLB contract.

[JMDurron]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Speaking of international scouting/hidden players.

Shoudnt guys from Puerto Rico and Canada be going to the first-year player draft instead of being a hidden talent?

I would expect most of those hidden players to be from DR, Venezuela and even sime from Asia.

I just signed two young prospects from Canada and PR and just found that to be wierd considering the rules.

Did those players demand MLB deals?

[injury log]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Speaking of international scouting/hidden players.

Shoudnt guys from Puerto Rico and Canada be going to the first-year player draft instead of being a hidden talent?

I would expect most of those hidden players to be from DR, Venezuela and even sime from Asia.

I just signed two young prospects from Canada and PR and just found that to be wierd considering the rules.

In real life, players from Canada and Puerto Rico are eligible for the amateur draft. OOTP doesn't model those types of things correctly.

As I mentioned earlier, the international scouting model in OOTP is only a vague approximation of reality, and people shouldn't expect it to be too accurate in all of the details.

[Pacoheadley]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Right. I wanted to add this late in OOTP 13 development, but unfortunately this proved to be much more complicated that I thought because it would require changes in all sorts of places in the code. But I'll tackle this again someday...

I'm not one who knows hardly anything about coding, but this seems kind of surprising. Amateurs in the draft get signing bonuses already, I'm guessing that it isn't as simple as treating them similar to draftees with how they are signed? (As in the very top sign MLB deals, and the rest get a signing bonus and a minor league deal).

[torpidbeaver]

Originally Posted by injury log

I haven't seen how this is actually working in OOTP at the moment, but I've been thinking about this, and given that it's impossible to implement a signing bonus system for teenage international signings, I don't think it's so bad if occasionally these guys request big league contracts, provided:

* it happens infrequently

* the players requesting MLB contracts are on the older side - the 18 year olds, not the 16 year olds

* the AI teams understand the importance of keeping top prospects and don't waive these players

If you do find a top 18 year old prospect who requests an MLB contract, that presents you with an interesting decision. The player will be out of options by age 22, so you'll probably need to carry him on your big league roster before he's ready. So you have to weigh the value of the roster spot (both the 40-man spot, and eventually the 25-man spot) and the salary you'll pay against the value of the prospect. Of course, you may be able to trade the player, though his contract will diminish his value slightly. In any case, that seems more interesting, from a gameplay perspective, than what happens in OOTP-12, where international scouting is too cheap and too easy.

Now, if AI teams end up signing these guys, then putting them on waivers once they run out of options (or before), even if they still have monster potential, then that's a huge problem, and it would be better to either fix the AI or eliminate these kinds of contract demands. But if the only problem is that the human player has to make some difficult decisions, well, that doesn't seem like a problem at all to me.

So far, I've had two international players -- both 17 years old -- ask for major league contracts. Both wanted $700k contracts.

In no way were they "ready" to be MLB players. They were rated as 1/2 star abilities with 2 and 2.5 star potentials.

Any chance this'll get changed? Is there a work-around with Commissioner mode?

[oman19]

Originally Posted by torpidbeaver

So far, I've had two international players -- both 17 years old -- ask for major league contracts. Both wanted $700k contracts.

In no way were they "ready" to be MLB players. They were rated as 1/2 star abilities with 2 and 2.5 star potentials.

Any chance this'll get changed? Is there a work-around with Commissioner mode?

I agree I really hope this is changed.

[injury log]

Originally Posted by torpidbeaver

Any chance this'll get changed?

I haven't seen this happen yet in my league, so I don't know just what the game is doing and how big of a problem the current system is, but I've asked the beta team to have a look at it. And yes, there's some chance at least that it will be changed in a future patch.

There wouldn't be a workaround in commish mode unless you want to find every international signing, edit out his contract, release him, and reassign him to the minors.

[Weaver's Wobble]

I would not mind the major league contracts if they had the current ability to drop into AA. But I find I am paying someone $720,000 to sit in Rookie league. That is just wrong. Pretty much all the players who are not red in their potential want a major league contract. It almost always ends up being irrational compared to what should happen.

I'd rather they all end up with minor league contracts. At least that would be closer to reality in that it would not use up years of minor league time. Anybody worth multiple millions should be showing up in the foreign free agents that come with free agency.

[1998 Yankees]

Bump before patch. Assuming this is a true issue (there is some debate on that), will it be addressed in this patch?

[PSUColonel]

Speaking of International Free agent (the ones that file) What is the talent range of the players if you decide to allow lots of the (30 or so) to enter the market annually? Are some very good, some in the middle etc.., or are they all star quality players? I haven't gotten his far yet.