DH or no DH?

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Yeah because THAT is what I said.

Give me a break.

Minimizing manager interference is not eliminating managing. Don't be dishonest.

While my first comment from yesterday was more tongue-in-cheek ...

Originally Posted by rpriske

Nonsense.

... you certainly argued me against the wall there, and ...

Originally Posted by rpriske

Besides, the poll is very close. You need to add the second and third totals together to get the people who like the DH.

... that is not true, because the second option has nothing to do with liking the DH concept.

Just because I will eat a dish with peas, doesn't mean I like peas.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I think he's claiming that individual numbers will be higher in leagues without a DH, due to OOTP's use of league totals. So in leagues without a DH, stats are spread over 8 batters per team instead of 9. League totals would still remain close to real life, but individual performances will be better as stats are being divided up by less players. Not sure if that's how it works though.

Some actual numbers would be more convincing. OOTP's talent distribution does not always match real life so if the issue exists it would apply across all league setups and have nothing to do with having or not having a DH. We already know that SB are distributed more evenly than real life. I'm sure other stats are similar. My numbers clearly show differences attributable to the DH. How they are distributed is a separate issue within OOTP.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Westheim

While my first comment from yesterday was more tongue-in-cheek ...



... you certainly argued me against the wall there, and ...



... that is not true, because the second option has nothing to do with liking the DH concept.

Just because I will eat a dish with peas, doesn't mean I like peas.

If you want to start nitpicking then the poll question is flawed. The new tradition is DH. We should have had a dinosaur option.

[BIG17EASY]

Whether or not someone likes the DH doesn't necessarily answer the question of which type (DH vs. non-DH) requires more strategic moves. Someone might simply like the DH because they want another true hitter in the lineup, and someone might not like the DH simply because they want their pitchers to hit. Those two opinions have nothing to do with strategy.

So basing arguments off the poll results is basically pointless.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Whether or not someone likes the DH doesn't necessarily answer the question of which type (DH vs. non-DH) requires more strategic moves. Someone might simply like the DH because they want another true hitter in the lineup, and someone might not like the DH simply because they want their pitchers to hit. Those two opinions have nothing to do with strategy.

So basing arguments off the poll results is basically pointless.

The only reason this is off the rails is that some people want to feel superior to others. Like the DH don't like the DH just stop with all the stupid posturing. I manage without the DH but I don't want to be identified with pseudo intellectual snobbery.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Outstanding lies on your part, as usual. No one has countered anything. DH management remains sitting on the bench, watching to see when your pitcher loses his effectiveness so you can warm somebody up. Yawn. Westheim has it correct in his posts, as usual. You have it wrong in yours, as usual.

Nor did I write that I was "relying" on the poll. I said that "Well, judging by the poll results, the DH loses big-time around here." And it does, you can see that. Those are poll results, a separate thing, and the DH does lose in them big time around here. You were the one wanting to let the people decide. Well, they did. In the opinion poll, your side lost.

It doesn't matter what anyone posts here, I know that DH managment is autopilot mode. Been there, done that, won the championship.

Oh, no, don't worry, you're definitely on the right path with all this. The absolutely worst thing you can ever do, ever, under any circumstance, is to admit you might be led to rethink any minor point, or that the other guy might have even a minor point on anything. Doing so only shows that you are absolutely, totally weak. Admitting that the other guy might be even a little right, on any point, only serves to put you in a position to be taken advantage of, repeatedly, until you either kill the enemy or the enemy kills you. There is no alternative. So when confronted by evidence, you MUST double down on your position, harder and firmer than ever, and hammer the savages relentlessly until they back down and admit you were right all along. The supremacy of your position, whatever it might be, must never be mitigated or abandoned. After all, you're a man, not a woman or a child. And failure is never an option for a true man who values his liberty, honor and self-respect above all else.






(Of course, I don't believe in all of this for myself, but I definitely recommend you continue along this path.)

[BIG17EASY]

And now we're not even discussing the DH, but rather each other's personality flaws.

If there are any mods around, please consider closing this thread unless it gets back on track quickly. Thanks.

[David Watts]

I wonder if the National League eventually bows to pressure and implements the DH, how long it will take for NL pitchers to quit going right after hitters and start nibbling like their AL brethren? Ugh, another reason I dislike Bud Selig. He moved the Astros to the AL.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

And now we're not even discussing the DH, but rather each other's personality flaws.

If there are any mods around, please consider closing this thread unless it gets back on track quickly. Thanks.

Oh, hey, I'm just funning around. That's why I put the smileys and the laughies in my posts.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Oh, hey, I'm just funning around. That's why I put the smileys and the laughies in my posts.

I wasn't referring only to your post. Joking or not, discussing each other's personality traits shouldn't be a part of these boards.

EDIT TO ADD: I should say, discussing each other's personality traits in a negative or smart-alecky way shouldn't be a part of these boards.

[frangipard]

Originally Posted by TomVeal

The argument is ultimately about how much specialization the game should encourage. Hardly anybody favors going the way of football, basketball and ice hockey (effectively unlimited substitution and maximum specialization), but we've moved beyond cricket (no substitutions except for injuries and only limited bowler specialization). I tend toward the non-specialist side of the spectrum myself. It wouldn't bother me if the starting lineup had to play the entire game and no one could pitch more than three innings. But it's a matter of taste, and I know that I'm in as small a minority as lovers of lutefisk.

Me, too. I don't think you could stick to a strict "starting lineup has to play the entire game," unless you're willing to make them play with 8 when someone gets hurt or ejected, but you could starkly limit it, the way they do in soccer.

Heck, I've always thought it would be interesting if baseball required everyone to take a turn at the mound as well as the plate; I imagined a "pitching order" of 1-9, just like the batting order, with Smith on one team and Jones on the other facing each other 4 times a game, or else each player being on the mound for one each of the nine innings.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I wasn't referring only to your post. Joking or not, discussing each other's personality traits shouldn't be a part of these boards.

EDIT TO ADD: I should say, discussing each other's personality traits in a negative or smart-alecky way shouldn't be a part of these boards.

I totally agree, and I for one would agree to have the boards monitored for that kind of thing in the future. When someone whacks me on the kneecaps, though, I don't always turn the other cheek, even though Jesus says I should. That one's definitely on me.

[frangipard]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Whether or not someone likes the DH doesn't necessarily answer the question of which type (DH vs. non-DH) requires more strategic moves. Someone might simply like the DH because they want another true hitter in the lineup, and someone might not like the DH simply because they want their pitchers to hit. Those two opinions have nothing to do with strategy.

So basing arguments off the poll results is basically pointless.

This. I manage with no DH for aesthetic reasons, and because I'm the fan of a NL team in MLB. That doesn't stop me from appreciating that both rules offer different intellectual challenges.


Human beings do have a pretty common tendency to that assert their preferences are not mere preferences, but reflections of their own superior taste/intelligence/moral virtue, and those with different opinions are inferior.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

I totally agree, and I for one would agree to have the boards monitored for that kind of thing in the future. When someone whacks me on the kneecaps, though, I don't always turn the other cheek, even though Jesus says I should. That one's definitely on me.

Yup the OOTP forums are similar to sports in many ways. It's more often than not the guy that responds to bad behavior that draws the flag.

[frangipard]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I wasn't referring only to your post. Joking or not, discussing each other's personality traits shouldn't be a part of these boards.

Take that up with the guy that started it ...

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by frangipard

Take that up with the guy that started it ...

Pointing fingers does not help matters. If you don't like what someone posts, ignore it, or better yet, put them on your ignore list and you won't see the posts in the first place. This is one instance when ignoring a problem actually will make it go away.

As for the DH, I think the MLBPA will have a lot of say in it being added to the NL at some point. Right now, the DH position tends to be a veteran with declining or already poor defensive skills. So the DH often prolongs a veteran's career, something the union will always be in favor of. What's interesting is that as the game continues to turn away from the traditional power stats that we all looked at on the back of baseball cards, will the DH position become filled by guys with better all-around offensive skills, which rules out most of those veterans on the back half of their careers.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

Pointing fingers does not help matters. If you don't like what someone posts, ignore it, or better yet, put them on your ignore list and you won't see the posts in the first place. This is one instance when ignoring a problem actually will make it go away.

As for the DH, I think the MLBPA will have a lot of say in it being added to the NL at some point. Right now, the DH position tends to be a veteran with declining or already poor defensive skills. So the DH often prolongs a veteran's career, something the union will always be in favor of. What's interesting is that as the game continues to turn away from the traditional power stats that we all looked at on the back of baseball cards, will the DH position become filled by guys with better all-around offensive skills, which rules out most of those veterans on the back half of their careers.

I'm sorry, but pointing fingers does help. Acting like a problem doesn't exist, doesn't make it go away. Letting someone bully you or watching him bully others and simply ignoring it only makes the problem worse. I will stand up for myself. If a person acts like a jackass they deserve to be treated like one. I'm tired of the that's just _____ being _______ and isn't it cute? Sorry if this irritates you, but and I understand if you put me on ignore.

[dunningrb]

I always play out my games pitch by pitch. I started with Diamond Mind Baseball in 1997 and switched to OOTP with version 12. Like many of you, I’ve managed a huge number of games with and without the DH. I find lots to enjoy about both modes of play, and I appreciate and agree with most of the points made on both sides of this argument. But I voted Traditional with No DH because that’s the original version of baseball. I’ve always felt the DH was a solution to a problem that did not really exist. But if the intent of the rule was to increase offense and do away with “boring” pitcher at-bats, we could accomplish the same thing by simply skipping the pitcher in the lineup and allowing only the eight other position players to bat. To me, this seems to be a more natural alternation of the original version of the game since we do not have to introduce an entirely new rule (Rule 6.10). I think the fact that Earl Weaver found and exploited a loophole in the original DH rule underscores my point.

I am not advocating for this change, by the way. I am simply saying that I prefer this change to the DH rule. It would be neat if OOTP could provide an option to implement this. Perhaps it’s an easy code change. If nothing else, it makes for an interesting ‘what-if’ scenario.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I'm sorry, but pointing fingers does help. Acting like a problem doesn't exist, doesn't make it go away. Letting someone bully you or watching him bully others and simply ignoring it only makes the problem worse. I will stand up for myself. If a person acts like a jackass they deserve to be treated like one. I'm tired of the that's just _____ being _______ and isn't it cute? Sorry if this irritates you, but and I understand if you put me on ignore.

I'm not putting you on ignore. You post a lot of helpful stuff around here, as does everyone else. But the personal attacks don't do anyone any good. If people want to argue a point, that's one thing. But taking personal shots -- serious or tongue-in-cheek -- need to stop, and I'm not singling you out when I say that. It applies to everyone, myself included.

[sprague]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I think he's claiming that individual numbers will be higher in leagues without a DH, due to OOTP's use of league totals. So in leagues without a DH, stats are spread over 8 batters per team instead of 9. League totals would still remain close to real life, but individual performances will be better as stats are being divided up by less players. Not sure if that's how it works though.

Exactly this. League totals are same but slight bumps for say 8 batters over 9