Gambo and T_Wil1 Photopack

[Cusick]

Originally Posted by bobb49

Thanks, I looked at that picture and others all of a much older Grasso. This was allegedly taken in 1945...about 12 years before yours....and if not Grasso, then who?

This is speculative, and hinges on the year of the photo being 1945. There were three catchers on the Giants' spring roster -- Ray Berres, Ernie Lombardi, and John Toncoff, a career minor leaguer. The photo is definitely not Berres or Lombardi. During the regular 1945 season, there were three catchers -- Lombardi, Clyde Kluttz, and Bill DeKoning. I've examined photos of Kluttz and DeKoning and have found characteristics which eliminate them.

The photo of Toncoff (on the left) shows him at age 26 in 1938 with the Ft. Smith Giants. One just has to wonder if he would have looked 7 years later like the Giant catcher in the photo on the right.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by Cusick

This is speculative, and hinges on the year of the photo being 1945.

Unless our guy is time-travelling, he's not a 1945 Giant. Note the single-striped arm sleeves: for the first seven years of the zip-up jerseys (1940-1946), the Giants had two stripes on the sleeves, as illustrated by the pic of Johnny Gee (1944-1946 in NY), here:



It was only in 1947, the final season the Giants wore the zip-ups before going back to button-ups, that the uniforms had a single stripe on the arm. (According to Dressed to the Nines, anyhow. But the only variation they show is for 1947, and since Gee the G-Man is clearly not wearing the same uni, I'm inclined to believe this is '47, not '45.)

So either 1947 or the spring of '48, I'd say. The Giants used six catchers in '47 (Walker Cooper, Ernie Lombardi, Wes Westrum, Bennie Warren, Mickey Livingston, Sal Yvars), but I can't say your guy looks like any of them. And I don't know if this is a spring game, as the picture looks as though it was taken at a big-league stadium.

So, I don't know who he is, but I'm inclined to aim a few years down the road from where we've been looking. Anybody got the 1948 spring roster, just to check?

(Making things more interesting is that '48 was the first year the Giants trained in Arizona. No telling if they brought some PCL catchers in for a look-see.)

[Amazin69]

Aha! (I think.) It's Angel "Jack" Aragón (son of 1914 Yankee Angel Aragón), who caught for the Giants in 1944:



Aragón spent 1947 in AAA Minneapolis, so perhaps the Giants called him up to New York during the parade of catchers and just didn't get him into a game? (If I could ID the stadium, we could see if it was fairly near to Minny.)

Alternatively, this is a 1944 picture, and Aragón has simply rolled his sleeves up to hide the second stripe we see on Gee's picture, above. But it doesn't seem as though the sleeves are long enough to merit such treatment, and Aragón's sleeves don't look rolled up, IMO.

But I do think it's Aragón.

[tnfoto]

Originally Posted by Cusick

This is speculative, and hinges on the year of the photo being 1945. There were three catchers on the Giants' spring roster -- Ray Berres, Ernie Lombardi, and John Toncoff, a career minor leaguer. The photo is definitely not Berres or Lombardi. During the regular 1945 season, there were three catchers -- Lombardi, Clyde Kluttz, and Bill DeKoning. I've examined photos of Kluttz and DeKoning and have found characteristics which eliminate them.

The photo of Toncoff (on the left) shows him at age 26 in 1938 with the Ft. Smith Giants. One just has to wonder if he would have looked 7 years later like the Giant catcher in the photo on the right.

Originally Posted by Amazin69

Aha! (I think.) It's Angel "Jack" Aragón (son of 1914 Yankee Angel Aragón), who caught for the Giants in 1944:

Attachment 384804Attachment 384805

Aragón spent 1947 in AAA Minneapolis, so perhaps the Giants called him up to New York during the parade of catchers and just didn't get him into a game? (If I could ID the stadium, we could see if it was fairly near to Minny.)

Alternatively, this is a 1944 picture, and Aragón has simply rolled his sleeves up to hide the second stripe we see on Gee's picture, above. But it doesn't seem as though the sleeves are long enough to merit such treatment, and Aragón's sleeves don't look rolled up, IMO.

But I do think it's Aragón.

It is not Toncoff nor Aragon. Their left ears (viewer's right) disqualify them. Here is a larger, clearer version of the Toncoff image where the ear is more visible, allowing for earsier comparison.

It is not Grasso, either.

[Cusick]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

So, I don't know who he is, but I'm inclined to aim a few years down the road from where we've been looking. Anybody got the 1948 spring roster, just to check?

Catchers on 1948 Giants' spring roster were Walker Cooper, Jim Gladd, Mickey Grasso, Mickey Livingston, Ben Warren, Wes Westrum, and Sal Yvars. Catchers on the 1947 spring roster were Cooper, Gladd, Lombardi, and Warren. I don't have time at the moment to check the photos, but will try to get to it later.

[tnfoto]

Originally Posted by Cusick

Catchers on 1948 Giants' spring roster were Walker Cooper, Jim Gladd, Mickey Grasso, Mickey Livingston, Ben Warren, Wes Westrum, and Sal Yvars. Catchers on the 1947 spring roster were Cooper, Gladd, Lombardi, and Warren. I don't have time at the moment to check the photos, but will try to get to it later.

I only have time for a very quick check myself but it is not any of the catchers mentioned.

[Amazin69]

Speaking of Giants catchers, IMO the true Moby-Dick in Thursday's group was Jerald "Jake" Brown, who caught in college and the minors, but not during his 48 PA in the bigs in 1975.

Born in Sumrall, MS but raised in Houston, Brown spurned a 33rd-round drafting by Twins in 1967 to attend Southern University and was rewarded two years later when the Giants made him the 2nd overall pick in the June 1969 Supplementary draft. (Rich Hand was #1.) Five seasons in the minors followed, culminating in batting .289 and .290 for AAA Phoenix in 1972/1973, which put him in San Francisco's plans, as Mike Sadek had hit a Sad .167 backing up Dave Rader in 1973.

Unfortunately, just two weeks before he was to report to spring training, Brown broke his left arm working at his off-season job (a steel mill in Houston), and was out for the year. He never caught professionally again.

Still, this didn't prevent the Giants from at least posing Brown with a mitt the following spring:



(As is often the case, I've tweaked the brightness/sharpness to get the face out of the shadows.)

Brown was sent to AA, possibly out of concern for the missing year, or by request, as the AA team had just moved to Houston-convenient Lafayette LA. He wasn't there long, though; a month of .307/349/453 and after the Giants dealt off Garry Maddox to the Phillies on May 4th, they needed another outfielder and soon after, Brown got the call to the big team.



His first three appearances were as a pinch-hitter, and he did fine, collecting a double and a walk. This earned Brown a pair of utility starts on May 27/28th in Philadelphia, replacing RF Bobby Murcer on the 27th and LF Gary Matthews on the 28th. Both games saw Brown go 1-for-4.

After an off-day to travel to Montreal, a rain-out, and a game where he only pinch-ran, Brown got what looked to be his big break on Sunday, June 1st, when Matthews injured himself in the pre-game warm-up, breaking his thumb and spending the next 6+ weeks on the shelf. Brown was inserted into Matthews's LF spot (and clean-up spot in the batting order) and in the top of the 1st he found himself facing Expos starter Dave "Maybe I Should Just Quit and Go Home to Montana" McNally (making what would prove to be his penultimate start of his career) with the bases loaded, and Jake doubled to score Gary Thomasson, Bruce Miller, and Murcer, giving the Giants a 3-0 lead. Things looked good.

But…in the bottom of the 3rd, Larry Parrish started the Expos' comeback, homering off of Mike Caldwell. It was a windy day at Parc Jarry (the Expos would hit four dingers, and once McNally [who'd always flustered him] was gone for the day, Murcer would hit a pair of 2-run shots to get the 13-5 win for SF) and I guess Jake didn't think Parrish's ball was headed out, because he went back to play it, ran into the wall, and was lucky to escape with only a severe right-cheek contusion. But he was out of action for the next 12 days, and missed his chance to lock down the LF job while Matthews was out.

By the time Brown returned with a pinch-hit double on June 13, Westrum was committed to playing Gary Thomasson, no matter how low his average might sink (as low as .156 at one point) and despite the annual "June swoon" the Giants were experiencing at this point. It was Glenn Adams in LF, Thomasson in CF, and Murcer in RF, and when CF Von Joshua got off the disabled list, Thomasson was shifted to LF, while Brown stayed anchored to the bench. He got one start against the Padres in SF (went 0-for-4) and the next week got to play both ends of a double-header in San Diego, going 2-for-4 in the opener but 0-for-2 in the nightcap, and that was the end of his starting opportunities. (In fairness, Brent Strom threw a 2-hitter in the second game of that doubleheader, and Brown did get one of the 2 walks Strom allowed.)

For the rest of the season, Brown was only a pinch-hitter or other sub, usually playing in lost causes (Giants were 9-32 in games he appeared in). His early success coming off the bench proved to be a mirage (his last hit was the 1st week of August) and his stats went down the drain. The Giants sent him back to Lafayette to start 1976 (again, Lafayette over Phoenix might have been a personal preference) and then included him as part of the 4-player package sent to the Braves in the Darrell Evans trade. He finished the season with the Braves' AA team in Savannah and then was released or retired.

Tragically, Brown died at age 33 in Houston of leukemia. Which leads me to wonder…was he gay? Young single men dying of "leukemia" in 1981…it wouldn't be impossible. (Yes, most of the early AIDS deaths were in NY, LA, and SF ["coincidentally" the same three cities where the US government was "immunizing" gay men against Hepatitis-B in the late 1970s…], but having played in San Francisco, Brown might have travelled back there later on.) Was this the reason why Brown didn't seem to get a full chance, why Westrum was so set on keeping Thomasson in the lineup and even playing utility infielders like Chris Arnold and Steve Ontiveros in the outfield, while leaving Brown on the bench?

Maybe…but perhaps not. Brown could simply have had a lot of bad luck, from the broken arm at the wrong time, to the cheek contusion at the wrong time, to Westrum deciding that Gary Thomasson (final stats for 1975, .227/304/347) just had to be in the lineup every day, even after Matthews returned. And you can fatally compromise your immune system in other ways, such as intravenous drug use (it was the 1970s, after all) or simply extreme poverty (Brown played before the "one day's service gets you on the pension plan" revision of 1979; he could have fallen to homelessness and contracted leukemia that way). Or perhaps he was simply born with inadequate white blood cells and was lucky to make it to 33.

We'll probably never know. RIP, Jake.

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by tnfoto

It is not Toncoff nor Aragon. Their left ears (viewer's right) disqualify them.

I wouldn't say the ear necessarily dq's Aragón; Mystery Guy's ear is obscured, after all. Get a better angle on it and it might match.

But…looking closer, I do see that Aragón seems to have a notably longer chin than Mystery Man. So I guess it isn't him, even though it seems really close around the eyes/eyebrows. (I wonder if he had any brothers.)

As for the stadium…Philadelphia? So maybe somebody who played at AAA Jersey City. Except that the regular catcher there in 1947 was…Mickey Grasso. Sigh.

[Merkle923]

Are we sure that's not he? Him? Are we sure...whatever?

More than anything else this later photo of Aragon in Knoxville has the same expression on his face. Also my guess on the Aragon photo and the officially unidentified "maybe Aragon" is that both images were taken by the same photographer (The George Burke/George Brace operation in Chicago) and the lighting even looks like it could be the same shoot.

[Amazin69]

Here's Leon at Cardinals camp in 1977, after the December trade that sent him and Brock Pemberton to the Cards for Ed Kurpiel. And a haircut.

Not a long trip, as the Mets and Cards were still sharing the same spring training complex back then, IIRC. But something messed up his game; neither Leon nor Pemberton ever got back to the Show, and Kurpiel never got there at all.

Still, here's Leon in Cardinal red.

[Amazin69]

I always forget that Larry had a post-Indians career. Here he is at Spring Training 1973, just chilling around Miami (?) after the A's had released him the previous December:



Probably a non-roster invitee here, as the Orioles didn't officially sign him until March 31, 1973, but played well enough to make the team. And good guess by Mr. Topps Man to take the shot.

[Cusick]

The Joe Stephenson 1943 Giants' photo comes from Baseball Birthdays. It does have the zip up uniform, and the right ear seems to be a match. The Cubs' photo of Stephenson was from an earlier post on this thread, and bears a strong facial resemblance to our mystery catcher. I think this may be the guy.

[Amazin69]

We've seen him before, but not without the famous mustache. From a spring training, probably 1976. (1977 ST would be wearing the '76 uniforms with the Bicentennial patch and once Warren had made the bigs, there'd be no reason to wear #55 instead of his own #40.)

[Amazin69]

Originally Posted by Cusick

The Joe Stephenson 1943 Giants' photo comes from Baseball Birthdays. It does have the zip up uniform, and the right ear seems to be a match. The Cubs' photo of Stephenson was from an earlier post on this photo, and bears a strong facial resemblance to our mystery catcher. I think this may be the guy.

It definitely looks like Stephenson (I didn't know he was Jerry Stephenson's dad!), since he has that submental depression (crease between lower lip and chin) that Aragón didn't. Good find!

Now I wonder when the pic is from. After 1943, Stephenson was a Cub (1944 ML, 1945-46 minors), White Sox (1947 ML, 1948 minors) and Brave (1948-1950 minors). That doesn't seem to leave a lot of time for him to be wearing Giant togs in 1947 or early '48.

I guess Dressed to the Nines could have it completely the wrong way around, with Joe wearing the single-striped sleeves before Johnny Gee wore the doubles. Or maybe the uniform was an alternate uniform. Or Joe had it altered, for some reason.

Still annoying, but I do think it's Joe.

[tnfoto]

Originally Posted by Cusick

The Joe Stephenson 1943 Giants' photo comes from Baseball Birthdays. It does have the zip up uniform, and the right ear seems to be a match. The Cubs' photo of Stephenson was from an earlier post on this photo, and bears a strong facial resemblance to our mystery catcher. I think this may be the guy.

Agreed. Ear, nose and chin all match.

[FatJack]

Originally Posted by Amazin69

Here's Leon at Cardinals camp in 1977, after the December trade that sent him and Brock Pemberton to the Cards for Ed Kurpiel. And a haircut.

Not a long trip, as the Mets and Cards were still sharing the same spring training complex back then, IIRC. But something messed up his game; neither Leon nor Pemberton ever got back to the Show, and Kurpiel never got there at all.

Leon failed to impress the Redbirds in '77 because he was playing through hamstring injuries. He "sat out" the '78 season because of "family obligations". In 1979, he signed on with the Miami Amigos of the short-lived Inter-American League. His manager, there, was Davey Johnson and Leon was having quite the season, batting .352 (second in the league), when the league folded. He played with Omaha in 1980 and would have been welcomed back but, by that time, he figured he wasn't getting back to The Show and thought it better to hang it up than to just hang on. "I got home on a Sunday," Leon remembered. "On Monday, my wife told me 'Get a job!' Federal Express hired me and I was there 28 years until I retired."

I'm a lifelong Mets fan dating back to '62. While other Mets fans may choose Seaver or Cleon or Kranepool or even Marv Throneberry, my favorite Mets of all-time have always been Stork Theodore and Leon Brown. They brought a special kind of enthusiasm to the game--especially Leon who came up in the midst of that moribund '76 season. That's why I was so excited to see him included in the latest TV release. The available pictures of Leon before these have been pretty substandard (and, of course, he never got a card from Topps).

Since 1983, Leon has been volunteering and coaching kids on the fundamentals of baseball in Arizona. He's always cheerful and upbeat and he loves and knows the game.

I was thinking, recently, about Topps Archives--one of their annual products that features past and current players on classic designs. They've got the pictures. Would it really kill them to feature some former players who never got a card in the set? Yes, I know that "customs" abound (I make 'em, too), but wouldn't it be extra cool to pull a '76 Leon Brown or a '69 Seattle Pilots Billy Williams from an actual Topps product? I think it would breathe a lot of excitement into that product. Just sayin'. Make it an insert if you don't want to dilute the main set. Lord knows, they've got hundreds of other useless inserts.

We now return you to the regular business of OOTP.

[Terry D]

Todd Fischer (left) pitched a few innings with the 1986 Angels. Here in, response to Simarc's request, is a larger image of him. Just for grins, I also threw in a larger version of Pat Keedy (right), a 3B prospect who got a few games with the 1985 Angels (and, later, the 1987 White Sox). Both of these images are from Steve's Baseball Photography Pages.

[Merkle923]

I vote with the experts - the unidentified Giants' catcher is Joe Stephenson.

As to Topps filling in the blanks - mix in the 1966 guys they left out with the 2015 players in the 1966 design being used for the Heritage set that comes out next month - I've been arguing that for years. The closest I got them to do were these occasional autographed cards (liked the 1960-style Dick Burwell). If they can't make a chase card out of it, they won't do it. What they have to pay the player for his image rights, to make a card most collectors would have no interest in, makes no economic sense.

Also, Topps does not have a photo of the "other" Billy Williams of the 1969 Pilots. One of the first things I looked for. They got him with Hawaii during the PCL/IL shoots of 1968 while the major leaguers were boycotting Topps, but that was it.

[BklynJace]

Originally Posted by Merkle923

As to Topps filling in the blanks - mix in the 1966 guys they left out with the 2015 players in the 1966 design being used for the Heritage set that comes out next month - I've been arguing that for years. The closest I got them to do were these occasional autographed cards (liked the 1960-style Dick Burwell). If they can't make a chase card out of it, they won't do it. What they have to pay the player for his image rights, to make a card most collectors would have no interest in, makes no economic sense.

This is interesting -- thanks as always, Merkle.

One Q, though: I'd assumed Topps could make a card of anybody they signed back in the day based on that contract. Since that's not the case, what's the reality of what they need for image rights etc.?

I've dreamt for years of team-specific ultimate sets that would have a card for everybody. Guess I need to let that one go.

[simarc]

Originally Posted by BklynJace

This is interesting -- thanks as always, Merkle.

One Q, though: I'd assumed Topps could make a card of anybody they signed back in the day based on that contract. Since that's not the case, what's the reality of what they need for image rights etc.?

I've dreamt for years of team-specific ultimate sets that would have a card for everybody. Guess I need to let that one go.

We create team sets, to fill in the gaps for the missing players, for use in our online leagues where we do season replays. Lots of fun working on those projects.