Game Called? Seriously?

[Number4]

Sorry, but what the hell are you ranting on about? It is the weather for christs sake, it is not always predictable.

Even a well-informed umpiring crew with every intention to finish the game might have their hands tied after a change in weather. If it is bad enough, they have no choice but to call the game.

Was it game 7 of the WS? No.

And its not like those guys on 2nd and 3rd are guaranteed runs, one pitch, one fly ball and a strong throw later and the umpires could have maybe called it without controversy.

You have 161 other games...

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by gads

The clause is 4.12(b)(4)(i) which states "Any suspended game not completed prior to the last scheduled game between the two teams during the championship season shall become a called game, as follows: (i) If such game has progressed far enough to become a regulation game, and one team is ahead, the team that is ahead shall be declared the winner (unless the game is called while an inning is in progress and before the inning is completed, and the visiting team has scored one or more runs to take the lead, and the home team has not retaken the lead, in which case the score upon the completion of the last full inning shall stand for purposes of this Rule 4.12(b)(4))."

It so happens that it was the last game between the two teams that season. However, the standard 4.12(a) rules that LGO and I were talking about had been in place way before 2013.

A New MLB Rule Forced Royals-Cardinals To Go 8 Soggy Hours

All is know is the conversation went like this:

Originally Posted by Mortimer

I actually remember a real world example, my Kansas City Royals, I think the 2013 season, were playing a game in St. Louis and during the top of the 8th or 9th inning the Royals pulled ahead and then the rain opened up and they had to stop play.

By rule if the game was called they would have reverted to the score at the start of the inning, thus taking the runs off the board and giving the Cardinals the win. So to avoid that mess they tried really hard to get the game in, and ended up finishing the game at like 4 am.

So yes by rule the umpires could have called it just like in TwinsGuy's game here, but it would have been such a controversy, that the umpires did everything they could to ensure the game was completed.

Originally Posted by gads

No, the rule is that it would be a suspended game. The runs don't get chalked off. If the top team takes the lead and the bottom team did not regain the lead, it is a suspended game.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

No, those are the (rather) old rules. If a game was called during an inning and the visiting team had either scored to tie the game or take the lead, and the home team had not yet completed its half of the inning, then the score would revert to the last completed inning (which could mean a victory for the home club depending on what the score was).

That rule was changed so that such games became suspended instead. If the home club is ahead in its half of the inning when the game is called, as long as it's a regulation game, it becomes a final result.

Originally Posted by gads

Thanks for confirming that I was right.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'm not sure when the change was made. I think it might have been as far back as the 1950s—I do remember the leagues experimenting with changes to the suspended game rules during that decade. One could probably narrow it down by examining the Retrosheet game logs, which include info on when games were suspended as well as the number of outs games lasted.

Originally Posted by Mortimer

Yes, the rule was changed the following year, but at the time, they were going to take the runs off, I was up at 4 am that night watching, and the Cardnals fought hard to get it called so they would get the win.

And although that rule has changed, the game the op is talking about can be seen as a simiar situation where a real life umpire crew might use their own judgment to avoid a controversial ending

Originally Posted by gads

The rule was changed much earlier than that.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I'm pretty sure it was changed well before 2013. The Official Baseball Rules for 2013 and 2014 are identical insofar as their treatment of when games can be suspended is concerned.

And then Mortimer posted this:

Originally Posted by Mortimer

What ever guys, I'm not arguing, I know what I saw, it was after the 5th inning I am 90% sure it was 2013 if not it was 2012, at least the Royals annoucers were saying if called they would give up the 2 runs going back to the start of the inning.

I remember the Cardinals manager was pissed, and the ground crew tried to say it was too muddy. It was one of the damnest things I have ever seen in baseball..Royals rally to beat Cardinals after rain delay, end eight-game skid

So, like Mortimer, whatever guys, I'm not arguing either. It looks to me like you both claimed Mortimer couldn't possibly have seen what he claimed to have seen because either the rule doesn't work that way or it had been changed and then Mortimer provided proof he did in fact see what he said he saw. And I merely congratulated him on his good memory. I wish mine worked as well.

[Airdrop01]

I was just going to write bit Wolf beat me t it that I've played in a game exactly like that many moons ago. It was called and we lost.

Then, last summer, my boys I coach had the same thing happen to them.

I honestly have no idea if it was the correct thing or not by MLB rules, but then, none of my two instances were in the Majors, unless the kids "Major" 13U counts. lol.

[David Watts]

Maybe in a patch or a future version, Markus can expand on the rainout feature to make situations like this more real. For example, I've noticed that the rainouts mid or late game come in kind of a all of a sudden nature. Unless I missed it(I play fast), it's almost as if the last batter before the suspension, or cancellation comes to the plate under clear skies and by the time his at bat is finished it's raining hogs and squirrels. What would be cool is if we got a little build up to the play stoppage. Maybe in the 7th we could get a PBP blurb about ominous clouds rolling in. Bottom of the 7th its started to rain. Top of the 8th it's getting hard to see them playing much longer......etc etc. There also should be a blurb once the game is cancelled describing why the umps cancelled the game. This could say, something like after waiting out the rain for an hour or more and checking the weather radar, the umpiring crew called the game. Right now things just seem all too sudden.

Of course, we all should have imaginations as well, so until or if ever this gets added, we may just need to use them.

[Déjà Bru]

This is a great thread on a really unusual and interesting new aspect of this game. I like seeing some new "faces" here as well.

So far, the discussion has stayed civil although it teetered for a while back there a bit. Can we keep it a friendly discussion?

Man, I can't wait until I have this happen to me but I can certainly understand OP being "pissed" when it happened to him. Don't care if there are 161 other games. When you are truly into your league and team and you play out every game, you want to win them all. As it should be! That's how great this simulation is.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by DB930

It'd be cool if, in a future version, they could get the game to recognize that something like this is a special situation (close game, tying or go-ahead runs on base), and allow for the fact that the RL umpires would make every effort to at the very least finish that half-inning... but also include a trigger that would make the possibility of injury go up as they play thru the wet weather...

I'd rather lose the game than my best player through injury.

[The Wolf]

Well, I finally put somebody on ignore.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Well, I finally put somebody on ignore.

Was it . . . was it . . . m-m-me?!?

[Which is a really stupid question to ask, because if it were me, you would not be reading this, would you? ]

[Lou Gehrig]

Originally Posted by RchW

I'd rather lose the game than my best player through injury.

I agree. I wonder if the issue for disagreement in this thread is based on geographic location. I know on the East Coast a storm can "come up" out of nowhere and it can rain all night.

Also there is the possibility that officials were trying to squeeze in the game hoping to get it in before a storm arrived and it moved in faster than expected. Fellas, sometimes it does rain all night and the following day too.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by David Watts

Maybe in a patch or a future version, Markus can expand on the rainout feature to make situations like this more real ...

There are some unrealistic aspects to how postponements are handled by the game at the moment. However, these apparently involve some core coding aspects, so they're not likely to be changed any time soon.

One question I'm not sure has been examined is whether the rate of postponements and suspended games for MLB-type leagues in OOTP matches what has been seen in the real-life majors over the last several years. (In terms of postponements, the average over the last six seasons is about 1.5%. I don't have the rate at which games were suspended; I'll have to dig that one out of Retrosheet game logs.)

[Le Grande Orange]

A little checking into the history of the suspended game rule shows some interesting background. Originally, the rule was limited to games interrupted by a curfew* or darkness. (The leagues for a time had this strange rule that lights could not be turned on during a game. That sometimes meant the first game of a doubleheader would be called by darkness, the lights switched on, and the second game played.)

*The curfew could be as a result of local city ordinances, league rule prohibiting the start of an inning after a given time, or an agreement to end a game by a specified time so that either one or both clubs could catch a train.

An example of some of the interesting bits. From the Jan. 26, 1955, issue of The Sporting News:

The rhubarb that grew in Brooklyn as the result of a rainout plus curfew in a game involving Milwaukee also was deftly uprooted. Rain had stopped a night game and it still couldn't be resumed when the curfew was reached. Then Umpire Larry Goetz wasn't certain whether it should be an official game stopped by rain or a suspended contest stopped by the curfew.

Rule 4.12(a) now definitely makes it an official game. It reads:

"Weather and similar conditions shall take precedence in determining whether a called game shall be a suspended game. If a game is halted by weather and subsequent light failure or an intervening time limit prevents its resumption, it shall not be a suspended game. If a game is halted by light failure, and weather or field conditions prevent its resumption, it shall not be a suspended game."

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by TwinsGuy11

So I'm a little upset. So I was playing at CHW with the Twins. Top of the 8th I'm down 6-4, I put together 3 hits to get to 6-5, runners on 2nd and 3rd with one out.


Then the game is called! I mean it's just one game in a rare instance, but that is pretty absurd. No way would a game be called in that situation.

Just to come back to this example, here's a pair of real life cases of a game called while an inning was in progress.

June 4, 2009 — San Francisco 4, Washington 1.

It was the second game of a doubleheader. The visiting Giants had built up a 4-1 lead heading into the top of the fifth inning. The Giants had two men on with two out when the rains came and halted play. After a 67-minute rain delay, the game was called and it became a San Francisco win even though the Nationals never had a chance to bat in the bottom of the fifth.

July 23, 2009 — St. Louis 4, Washington 1.

The visiting Cardinals led 4-1 heading into the bottom of the seventh inning. The first Washington batter grounded out. The rains then came and play was halted. After a 90-minute rain delay the game was called, becoming a win for St. Louis even though the Nationals never had a chance to complete their half of the seventh.

[bbmike]

So it looks like at least one requirement is that Washington is in the game.

[DustinthePOWERHOUSE]

Originally Posted by Lou Gehrig

I agree. I wonder if the issue for disagreement in this thread is based on geographic location. I know on the East Coast a storm can "come up" out of nowhere and it can rain all night.

Also there is the possibility that officials were trying to squeeze in the game hoping to get it in before a storm arrived and it moved in faster than expected. Fellas, sometimes it does rain all night and the following day too.

...and sometimes it SNOWS all night and the following dayS too...sorry this winter STILL has me mad

[TwinsGuy11]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Just to come back to this example, here's a pair of real life cases of a game called while an inning was in progress.

June 4, 2009 — San Francisco 4, Washington 1.

It was the second game of a doubleheader. The visiting Giants had built up a 4-1 lead heading into the top of the fifth inning. The Giants had two men on with two out when the rains came and halted play. After a 67-minute rain delay, the game was called and it became a San Francisco win even though the Nationals never had a chance to bat in the bottom of the fifth.

July 23, 2009 — St. Louis 4, Washington 1.

The visiting Cardinals led 4-1 heading into the bottom of the seventh inning. The first Washington batter grounded out. The rains then came and play was halted. After a 90-minute rain delay the game was called, becoming a win for St. Louis even though the Nationals never had a chance to complete their half of the seventh.

Those are vastly different situations than mine though. There were both 3 run leads and the team never should that they were coming back. In mine, I scored a run and had two runners in scoring position with one out and a guy at the plate hitting .380 at that point.

I understand a delay, but I doubt the game would actually be called. There have been games postponed as long as 5 hours and 45 minutes and resumed.

And I did not mean to create such a fuss and arguments between posters. I am sorry for that.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by TwinsGuy11

Those are vastly different situations than mine though. There were both 3 run leads and the team never should that they were coming back. In mine, I scored a run and had two runners in scoring position with one out and a guy at the plate hitting .380 at that point.

Those are just the examples I found with a quick check. I'm sure I can probably find an example closer to yours if I checked further.

[TwinsGuy11]

Originally Posted by Number4

Sorry, but what the hell are you ranting on about? It is the weather for christs sake, it is not always predictable.

Even a well-informed umpiring crew with every intention to finish the game might have their hands tied after a change in weather. If it is bad enough, they have no choice but to call the game.

Was it game 7 of the WS? No.

And its not like those guys on 2nd and 3rd are guaranteed runs, one pitch, one fly ball and a strong throw later and the umpires could have maybe called it without controversy.

You have 161 other games...

I don't think I'm ranting at all... I even said it's no big deal.

[TwinsGuy11]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Those are just the examples I found with a quick check. I'm sure I can probably find an example closer to yours if I checked further.

No definitely. And well worth presenting those examples, just think this is a much different scenario.

And it's fine if people disagree with me. I love having these types of discussions. I think the tough thing about this discussion for some people is just that you aren't going to change someone's mind on it. For instance, if I'm the ump for a game like that, no way am I calling the game.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Was it . . . was it . . . m-m-me?!?

[Which is a really stupid question to ask, because if it were me, you would not be reading this, would you? ]

It's Markus Heinsohn. Dude is always talking about "bugs" and "fixing issues", like he's on the development team or something.

[Lou Gehrig]

Originally Posted by DustinthePOWERHOUSE

...and sometimes it SNOWS all night and the following dayS too...sorry this winter STILL has me mad

Oh yeah...Boston. You guys are still digging out aren't you?
Put the snow shovels down and grab a bat and glove. The season is almost here!