Questionable AI decisions

[MKG1734]

And I don't post these so that you can tell me how to create a "work around". I post these so that they will be addressed at some point by Markus and his team. If nothing else one could program the AI such that it never pinch hits for position players when in the lead unless there is a player listed as a "defensive sub" on the lineup screen. A work around would only increase the advantage I already have over the AI.

+1, nail on head

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

That why was I asked if it happened to the other teams

I can only assume it does since I assume the AI acts the same no matter what team it is controlling, of course influenced by the different strategies of the particular managers involved. I don't make a habit of checking up on the in game moves of the AI as it pertains to my opponents to make sure it makes sense with the roster they have.

[tcblcommish]

Not trying to create a work around for just you hence my question. You stated the players involved but not their ratings, I could care less what their names are. You haven't stated what was on the bench both hitting and defense so on the surface it seems like a bad move but there is a lot of factors that go into play.

I have been posting in your threads to try to help understand and figure out why you are having these things happen but as soon as I do, you throw out something about workarounds. That's fine, keep posting minimal stuff so that people will get half a story and that nothing will come of it even tho there is someone trying to help.

If this is a huge deal, did you post a bug report? Post with pictures and a league file so the team can look at?

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I'm just going to start posting them in here until they get addressed since the other thread I was using got locked.

Just had my starting CF pinch hit for in the bottom of the 7th when up by one just because it was lefty vs lefty. Then had my GG winning SS pinch hit for in the 8th while up two runs just because the bases were loaded and he is a poor hitter.

I don't know... especially in the last case I'd PH for the SS as well.

As other posters mentioned, there are many factors involved here, and of course the AI will sometimes do strange decisions. As do real life managers.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

Not trying to create a work around for just you hence my question. You stated the players involved but not their ratings, I could care less what their names are. You haven't stated what was on the bench both hitting and defense so on the surface it seems like a bad move but there is a lot of factors that go into play.

I have been posting in your threads to try to help understand and figure out why you are having these things happen but as soon as I do, you throw out something about workarounds. That's fine, keep posting minimal stuff so that people will get half a story and that nothing will come of it even tho there is someone trying to help.

If this is a huge deal, did you post a bug report? Post with pictures and a league file so the team can look at?

I'm not sure why the hitting abilities of anyone involved matters. Modern day MLB managers don't pinch hit for their best defensive CF or their best defensive SS late in games when they have the lead regardless of who is on the bench. You would never see the Red Sox pinch hit Ortiz (assume inter league game) for just about anyone in the 7th or 8th innings if they had a lead except a pitcher. And they certainly wouldn't pinch hit for Bogaerts (even though he is average at best at SS defensively) or Betts or Victorino or even Ryan Hanigan for that matter.

[MKG1734]

Here is a similar issue I posted about last fall:

AI In-Game

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I have a long-running dynasty running (currently in year 2032 after starting in 2014).

I will only watch a game played (as GM) when I consider it an important game (usually an elimination-type game).

Recently, in a game #7 scenario I watched my team's manager make a move which was questionable at best....but seemed like the AI should easily NOT make this decision.

The game went into extra innings, and after several substitutions, my backup middle infielders were in the game.

I have a backup utility INF who is good at every infield position - but best at 2B, and a backup second baseman who is ONLY able to play 2B.

Sadly, my AI manager put my Utility INF at this best position of 2B but left my backup 2B at a totally unfamiliar posiiton of SS. This led to disaster as a ground ball hit to the SS ended the game on a 2 out error.

Why would the AI do this? Is there a measure to help this not happen that I am not aware of?

Thank you to anyone who has any help / comments to offer.

It is beyond clear that the AI should have put the backup utility INF at SS (since he could play 2B, SS, 3B equally well), and the backup 2B at 2B (since he could only play 2B).

The replies were (verbatim):

#1, The Wolf: Sounds like the AI programming needs more work
#2, JM Durron: I wish I could help more, but my solution to the in-game AI is to make all of the decisions myself during every game. That way, I only have myself to blame.
#3, SteveP: No. The game engine should optimize fielding any time there is a change, just as does when the AI sets a lineup/depth chart for a team. Markus contends that the engine does this, but it is certainly hard to see that. The game engine is designed so that any player can play any position (even catcher). I think this is a matter of expediency. That may help to explain what we see, since the probability of a player who is badly assigned making an error is significantly less that would occur in real life (or at least I think so -- it's difficult to make a statistically valid analysis). My solution is to interrupt the game and fix the fielding assignments as best I can, not only for my team but also for the other team. Not something that works for you considering how to play the game.

So, while dyzalot's deal with offensive substitutions at an inappropriate time that then affect defensive substitituions/positionings....mine deals with defensive positioning of players who have been substituted for.

And, yes, I can certainly stop the game and make the changes, myself, for my team (and the other team if I am in commission mode) ... but that is a "work around" which isn't suitable...bc I can't play-out every game between every team for the entire season, and the AI's teams are suffering from these types of decisions in games that they play against each other (as well as my own team suffering in its games that I'm not watching).

Above all, the issue I personally noted above seems like it should never, ever happen with the "checks" that the sim engine is said to run to ensure that this doesn't happen.

How many games are lost by an AI team playing an AI team because of this? How many games do I lose that I sim through? How many extra games can I win by using the "work around" of fixing my team and not the AI's?

The solution is not a work-around. The solution is enhancing the sim engine / AI.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I don't know... especially in the last case I'd PH for the SS as well.

You would? When was the last time you saw a MLB manager pinch hit for their GG winning SS late in a game with the lead? I mean normally at that point you are trying to get your best defensive players into the game, not substitute for them.

[tcblcommish]

You're right, other players on the bench don't matter. Enjoy the game or don't. Either way good luck with the forum and getting things changed your way

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

You're right, other players on the bench don't matter. Enjoy the game or don't. Either way good luck with the forum and getting things changed your way

Fine. Be dismissive. Don't address my argument with a logical counter because that would be too difficult for you. Geez...

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

You would? When was the last time you saw a MLB manager pinch hit for their GG winning SS late in a game with the lead? I mean normally at that point you are trying to get your best defensive players into the game, not substitute for them.

I am pretty sure if I'd scan retrosheet PbP data I'd find several instances of something similar.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by MKG1734

The solution is not a work-around. The solution is enhancing the sim engine / AI.

The game already does optimize the defense after / during substitutions, we work on this AI every version and I am not aware of any weird issues in V16. In my tests this works just fine.

[tcblcommish]

You have already stated flat out the game is broken, needs to be fixed. When I asked for info it's a very simple "I don't see why they matter" so yiu have convinced yourself that this doesn't happen in real life so my game is wrong. I'm not wasting my time on someone that can't see past their own conclusions.

If there is players on the bench that can do the job defensively and have better players hit and possibly get more run late in a game to help win, why wouldn't you pinch hit? If the guys on the bench aren't good defensively and could potentially blow the game, then I can see an issue. There are a lot of factors that go into ai decisions that can potentially go against the decisions of the real life teams and managers. There just needs more information, plain and simple so yes the other players on the bench matter.

If you can't see that, then what's the point?

[MKG1734]

To Markus Heinsohn (in reply to your comment):

Please understand I am not trying to flame the thread or be obnoxious. My above post was posted with good and true intentions in order to display that, yes, many times the suggestions are to "work-around" this or that... but... that isn't what the answer should be.

Because, you have to keep in mind...that a work around helps you and hurts the AI. Or, if you use the work around on both teams in a game, it helps both.

However; it does NOT help the AI when the AI is playing itself during the sim. Last year, when I posted that issue, I was not aware of how to post my game logs, this, that...and, honestly, the answers I received about simply working around or, essentially, "I don't see this, ever" frustrated me and I stopped playing. I'm not crazy...I know what I watched happen. So I can understand where dyzalot is coming from.

Now...I do have the desire to continue playing and will be purchasing v16 and playing it (as it provides a great utility at a very modest price). However; if I see these issues replicated, I promise I will attempt to figure out a way to go through the process of notifying those who need to be notified.

But...the answer can't always be (and I'm speaking for the community vets who do answer like this): "real life managers do stupid things, too." Because...c'mon...thats not the way to attack this issue. Of course real life people make dumb decisions. But they don't make decisions like the one I posted above at the MLB level (which is what this game is attempting to replicate).

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

You have already stated flat out the game is broken, needs to be fixed. When I asked for info it's a very simple "I don't see why they matter" so yiu have convinced yourself that this doesn't happen in real life so my game is wrong. I'm not wasting my time on someone that can't see past their own conclusions.

If there is players on the bench that can do the job defensively and have better players hit and possibly get more run late in a game to help win, why wouldn't you pinch hit? If the guys on the bench aren't good defensively and could potentially blow the game, then I can see an issue. There are a lot of factors that go into ai decisions that can potentially go against the decisions of the real life teams and managers. There just needs more information, plain and simple so yes the other players on the bench matter.

If you can't see that, then what's the point?

I already said that Bradley Jr. was the best defensive CF on the roster and Russell is a GG winner so yeah, he is the best defensive SS too. And do you have a link to where I stated that "the game is broken, needs to be fixed."?

[tcblcommish]

You just keep looking past everything I'm saying. Please read again

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

I am pretty sure if I'd scan retrosheet PbP data I'd find several instances of something similar.

I bet that once you ruled out injuries and replacements in huge blowouts or replacements at the end of the season when a team has already clinched the division, you'd be hard pressed to find examples like the ones I showed you in recent MLB history.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

You just keep looking past everything I'm saying. Please read again

I'm obviously too dumb to crack the code of whatever you are trying to say. How about you make it obvious for someone as dimwitted as me.

[tcblcommish]

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. If there are guys on the bench that can come in and play defensively very well and not pose risk, why not pinch hit for someone to try and get a bit more of a lead? That was the question I posed, I didn't think it was that hard to follow. Again, it takes into consideration the players that you have on the bench which is why I asked the question.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by tcblcommish

I'm not sure how much clearer I can be. If there are guys on the bench that can come in and play defensively very well and not pose risk, why not pinch hit for someone to try and get a bit more of a lead? That was the question I posed, I didn't think it was that hard to follow. Again, it takes into consideration the players that you have on the bench which is why I asked the question.

Because MLB managers don't do that. They don't pull their GG winning SS with a lead. I don't even care if it makes sense because I want the sim to actually simulate. And as for the pinch hitting of my center fielder, he is a consistent .800 OPS guy who is rated as a "13" (1-20) in CF and the guy that replaced him is rated as a "6".

It also makes sense to never sac bunt, even with your pitchers but I wouldn't want the AI doing that and I don't do that because I am trying to run a sim, not min/max a video game.

[tcblcommish]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Because MLB managers don't do that. They don't pull their GG winning SS with a lead. I don't even care if it makes sense because I want the sim to actually simulate. And as for the pinch hitting of my center fielder, he is a consistent .800 OPS guy who is rated as a "13" (1-20) in CF and the guy that replaced him is rated as a "6".

It also makes sense to never sac bunt, even with your pitchers but I wouldn't want the AI doing that and I don't do that because I am trying to run a sim, not min/max a video game.

Once again you are stuck on "MLB managers do do that" and this becomes a statement everytime, you are convinced of a certain thing and nothing that is said can change your mind. I don't agree with a "6" coming in to replace a "13" when the hitter is a better hitter as well so that is why I ask for more information. Not that hard to follow right? Troubleshooting to get the answer?

However, like I said, you are convinced that this is wrong and that it should never happen so the only ones that can help you are Markus and whomever else actually worked on the game programming because they are the only ones that have the "know" on the programming.

Good luck with the game, I tried to help and even though I am the only one, I got sarcasm and ignorance. If you don't like the way the game produces the results, then don't play it. If the game is truly doing things that you see that should not happen, file a bug report with evidence so that it can be fixed and you can enjoy it.