8 man bullpen

PSUColonel · 04-06-2018, 01:17 PM

While I haven't yet set the AI rosters to a hard 8 man bullpen with 12 position players...I have set the AI roster to be 7 man bullpens with 12 position players...which only adds up to 24. This gives the AI a choice as to whether or not it carries a relievers.

I do however, think it's only a matter of time before the 8 man bullpen becomes the new norm (if it isn't already) and more versatile bench players are in much more high demand.

EDIT: I just noticed the Tampa Bay Rays are using a 9 man bullpen!

DaBears · 04-06-2018, 03:48 PM

Yet another reason you should be able to control the active roster in manager-only mode. Tampa is carrying 9, several teams have 8.

schreck · 04-06-2018, 04:01 PM

But Tampa is only carrying like 3 starters, so the 9 reliever thing is a little different as they still only have 12 pitchers on the roster. Lots of bullpen days.

MizzouRah · 04-06-2018, 04:02 PM

I'm getting close to setting an MLB wide 8 man bullpen. For some reason in this version I'm seeing too many teams running out of arms and using position players to finish out a game.

I had a simmed game with my Cardinals where we were tied in the 12th and had no pitchers so Matheny used a bench player who gave up 3 runs, game over.

Has anyone made the switch league wide via settings and if so, how is it?

DaBears · 04-06-2018, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I'm getting close to setting an MLB wide 8 man bullpen. For some reason in this version I'm seeing too many teams running out of arms and using position players to finish out a game.

I had a simmed game with my Cardinals where we were tied in the 12th and had no pitchers so Matheny used a bench player who gave up 3 runs, game over.

Has anyone made the switch league wide via settings and if so, how is it?

Don’t worry, Mayers is there and headed toward two appearances for the season. He will apparently stay very rested.

highandoutside · 04-06-2018, 04:06 PM

I've been giving the AI a 28 man roster for years, for exactly this reason. I want to play against a strong AI and it inevitably ends up blowing out its bullpen at some point with just 25 men and 7 relievers. With a 28 man roster the AI has a bit more flexibility and doesn't end up with a completely tired bullpen. It makes for a better and, ironically, more realistic challenge.

DaBears · 04-06-2018, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highandoutside

I've been giving the AI a 28 man roster for years, for exactly this reason. I want to play against a strong AI and it inevitably ends up blowing out its bullpen at some point with just 25 men and 7 relievers. With a 28 man roster the AI has a bit more flexibility and doesn't end up with a completely tired bullpen. It makes for a better and, ironically, more realistic challenge.

Do you manage games out, and use all 28...or are you using a house rule to limit yourself. Just curious. I have thought about doing this for the AI but only carrying 25 myself to make he game harder.

highandoutside · 04-06-2018, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBears

Do you manage games out, and use all 28...or are you using a house rule to limit yourself. Just curious. I have thought about doing this for the AI but only carrying 25 myself to make he game harder.

Yes, I play out every game. I carry 25 players and give the AI 28. I also don't touch players on waivers, because we all know the AI has problems there, too. In my fictional league, I also place a salary cap on myself or play in a small market. I end up with a much more challenging game, I think.

(None of this is criticism of the developers. They are trying to model something very complicated and they do it well. But the AI is imperfect and if I can make tweaks to make it more competitive, I do.)

DaBears · 04-06-2018, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highandoutside

Yes, I play out every game. I carry 25 players and give the AI 28. I also don't touch players on waivers, because we all know the AI has problems there, too. In my fictional league, I also place a salary cap on myself or play in a small market. I end up with a much more challenging game, I think.

(None of this is criticism of the developers. They are trying to model something very complicated and they do it well. But the AI is imperfect and if I can make tweaks to make it more competitive, I do.)

Interesting approach. I agree that the “issues” are not criticisms, but believe there are limitations to what the AI can be programmed to do across literally thousands of scenarios. I may give your thought a try.

chazzycat · 04-06-2018, 05:34 PM

The Phillies have a 9 man bullpen too. It's all about the "times through the order" penalty.

NoOne · 04-06-2018, 06:26 PM

if you have a bunch of quality rp, sure..

the tampa thing is temprorary at "9" that has to do with multitude of days off when the season starts.

yes, you get worse by the third time, but typically the 6th and 7th guy in a bullpen are barely MLB-quality.

you shouldn't worry about overworking a 6th/7th guy to save your 3-4 good RP.. if you have more than 3-4 rp that's probably wasted resources relative to offense and defense cost choices. or, they are all young and cheap.. a possibiity.

this is overblown when context isn't considered. fatigue, quality of sp, run differential in the game at hand etc etc... most of the time a decision is all but forced.

if you have a good bench that can cover everyhting with 12... then go ahead andn do this, of course... but subbing a poor-quality RP for an SP after 2 times through may not be any better than playin gthat SP until he gets into a spot of trouble.

your 3-4 better rp can't be used every single game, so ?? comes down to timing of when you protect the SP and when you do not.

with ~6 HQ RP you might be able to do it every other game and not have fatigue issues (3/3 split every other day of work).. but any time the sp goes down earlier than expected, you'll have ot dip into the 7th plus rp in pen for sure... and they are almsot always junk players. let alone the cost of maintaining 6 HQ RP... how much offense are you losing as an opportunity cost, and does it result in a larger run differenctial or not? even volatility of each differential comes into play too.

e.g. a 2 run differential at 7rs-5ra is not the same as 4rs-2ra... these two situations will have different dynamics to consider.

Andy · 04-06-2018, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chazzycat

The Phillies have a 9 man bullpen too. It's all about the "times through the order" penalty.

But does Kapler know how to use them?

chazzycat · 04-06-2018, 07:25 PM

hah, yeah the idea is solid but the execution is a work in progress...

Orcin · 04-06-2018, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I'm getting close to setting an MLB wide 8 man bullpen. For some reason in this version I'm seeing too many teams running out of arms and using position players to finish out a game.

I am seeing this also. I am running my own team with an 8-man bullpen, and taking advantage of tired arms on the other team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I had a simmed game with my Cardinals where we were tied in the 12th and had no pitchers so Matheny used a bench player who gave up 3 runs, game over.

But it's Matheny so...

MizzouRah · 04-06-2018, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin

I am seeing this also. I am running my own team with an 8-man bullpen, and taking advantage of tired arms on the other team.

But it's Matheny so...

LOL....

I'm running a 7 man bullpen but I've been thinking about switching to 8.. I just wonder if I should have the AI teams do the same?

MizzouRah · 04-06-2018, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by highandoutside

I've been giving the AI a 28 man roster for years, for exactly this reason. I want to play against a strong AI and it inevitably ends up blowing out its bullpen at some point with just 25 men and 7 relievers. With a 28 man roster the AI has a bit more flexibility and doesn't end up with a completely tired bullpen. It makes for a better and, ironically, more realistic challenge.

I wonder if maybe I should try a 26 man roster and then 8 relievers league wide so it would be 13 players and 13 pitchers? Seems logical to me.

MizzouRah · 04-06-2018, 09:48 PM

Ok searched the 18 forums...

Quote:

Bluenoser's said:

The AI seems to handle this just fine already. I use 26 man rosters, but have my settings as follows:

Typical Starting rotation size - 5
Number of Relievers - 6
Number of position players - 14

This totals 25, with a 26 man roster. So the 26th spot is free for the AI to decide. Some teams carry 6 MR's, some carry 7, and I've even seen 8 on a couple teams with 13 for pp's.

So the AI does make choices based on its needs from what I'm seeing.

Quote:

Matt Arnold said:

Matt Arnold

So if you want teams to occasionally use an 8-man pen, you can do something like 5 SP + 7 RP + 12 POS =24 players on a 25-man roster. And then the AI will simply fill the last spot with whoever they like best in their system.

So like PSUColonel said, I might try what he and Matt suggested and maybe even a 26 man roster would be even better making the AI have 13/13.

The first suggestion would only work if the AI made it's 25th player decision based on need rather than what was the best player to bring up per ratings.

MizzouRah · 04-06-2018, 10:17 PM

I had 37 position players that have pitched at least 0.1 innings so far this season 110 games in (not including 2 way players).

So I went to a 26 player roster with 5 SP/8 RP/13 PP. I'll see how that goes for now.

highandoutside · 04-06-2018, 11:23 PM

Ok, in a MLB 2018 season I'm playing on the side, eight position players have pitched through 18 games (excluding Ohtana) for a total of 10 2/3rds innings. That seems a lot. However, according to this article, the number of times a position player pitches a season is actually way up over historical averages. In 2016, 26 position players pitched. https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/8/...for-every-team

While bullpen ERA doesn't look too bad across the league, many teams seem to have mostly tired bullpens.

In my fictional league with 28-man rosters, only one position pitched has pitched over 2/3rds of an inning. That league is 148 games into the season.

PSUColonel · 04-07-2018, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I'm getting close to setting an MLB wide 8 man bullpen. For some reason in this version I'm seeing too many teams running out of arms and using position players to finish out a game.

I had a simmed game with my Cardinals where we were tied in the 12th and had no pitchers so Matheny used a bench player who gave up 3 runs, game over.

Has anyone made the switch league wide via settings and if so, how is it?

has pitcher/reliever stamina been adjusted in any way?

04-06-2018, 01:17 PM	#1
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,118	8 man bullpen While I haven't yet set the AI rosters to a hard 8 man bullpen with 12 position players...I have set the AI roster to be 7 man bullpens with 12 position players...which only adds up to 24. This gives the AI a choice as to whether or not it carries a relievers. I do however, think it's only a matter of time before the 8 man bullpen becomes the new norm (if it isn't already) and more versatile bench players are in much more high demand. EDIT: I just noticed the Tampa Bay Rays are using a 9 man bullpen! Last edited by PSUColonel; 04-06-2018 at 01:24 PM.

04-06-2018, 06:26 PM	#11
NoOne Banned Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 7,273 Infractions: 0/1 (3)	if you have a bunch of quality rp, sure.. the tampa thing is temprorary at "9" that has to do with multitude of days off when the season starts. yes, you get worse by the third time, but typically the 6th and 7th guy in a bullpen are barely MLB-quality. you shouldn't worry about overworking a 6th/7th guy to save your 3-4 good RP.. if you have more than 3-4 rp that's probably wasted resources relative to offense and defense cost choices. or, they are all young and cheap.. a possibiity. this is overblown when context isn't considered. fatigue, quality of sp, run differential in the game at hand etc etc... most of the time a decision is all but forced. if you have a good bench that can cover everyhting with 12... then go ahead andn do this, of course... but subbing a poor-quality RP for an SP after 2 times through may not be any better than playin gthat SP until he gets into a spot of trouble. your 3-4 better rp can't be used every single game, so ?? comes down to timing of when you protect the SP and when you do not. with ~6 HQ RP you might be able to do it every other game and not have fatigue issues (3/3 split every other day of work).. but any time the sp goes down earlier than expected, you'll have ot dip into the 7th plus rp in pen for sure... and they are almsot always junk players. let alone the cost of maintaining 6 HQ RP... how much offense are you losing as an opportunity cost, and does it result in a larger run differenctial or not? even volatility of each differential comes into play too. e.g. a 2 run differential at 7rs-5ra is not the same as 4rs-2ra... these two situations will have different dynamics to consider. Last edited by NoOne; 04-06-2018 at 06:31 PM.

04-06-2018, 03:48 PM	#2
DaBears All Star Reserve Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 501	Yet another reason you should be able to control the active roster in manager-only mode. Tampa is carrying 9, several teams have 8.

04-06-2018, 04:01 PM	#3
schreck Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 53	But Tampa is only carrying like 3 starters, so the 9 reliever thing is a little different as they still only have 12 pitchers on the roster. Lots of bullpen days.

04-06-2018, 04:02 PM	#4
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,264	I'm getting close to setting an MLB wide 8 man bullpen. For some reason in this version I'm seeing too many teams running out of arms and using position players to finish out a game. I had a simmed game with my Cardinals where we were tied in the 12th and had no pitchers so Matheny used a bench player who gave up 3 runs, game over. Has anyone made the switch league wide via settings and if so, how is it?

04-06-2018, 04:06 PM	#6
highandoutside All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 686	I've been giving the AI a 28 man roster for years, for exactly this reason. I want to play against a strong AI and it inevitably ends up blowing out its bullpen at some point with just 25 men and 7 relievers. With a 28 man roster the AI has a bit more flexibility and doesn't end up with a completely tired bullpen. It makes for a better and, ironically, more realistic challenge.

04-06-2018, 05:34 PM	#10
chazzycat All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,685	The Phillies have a 9 man bullpen too. It's all about the "times through the order" penalty.

04-06-2018, 07:25 PM	#13
chazzycat All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,685	hah, yeah the idea is solid but the execution is a work in progress...

04-06-2018, 10:17 PM	#18
MizzouRah Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Troy, Mo Posts: 6,264	I had 37 position players that have pitched at least 0.1 innings so far this season 110 games in (not including 2 way players). So I went to a 26 player roster with 5 SP/8 RP/13 PP. I'll see how that goes for now.

04-06-2018, 11:23 PM	#19
highandoutside All Star Reserve Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 686	Ok, in a MLB 2018 season I'm playing on the side, eight position players have pitched through 18 games (excluding Ohtana) for a total of 10 2/3rds innings. That seems a lot. However, according to this article, the number of times a position player pitches a season is actually way up over historical averages. In 2016, 26 position players pitched. https://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2017/8/...for-every-team While bullpen ERA doesn't look too bad across the league, many teams seem to have mostly tired bullpens. In my fictional league with 28-man rosters, only one position pitched has pitched over 2/3rds of an inning. That league is 148 games into the season.