Starting pitchers... sure are frustrating. lol

[Timofmars]

Originally Posted by Qeltar

ETA: I need to detach myself from the gameplay a bit. I find I am not enjoying playing out the games because I get frustrated when the players don't perform (like the game I just lost due to the idiot pitcher throwing to second on a bunt and being too late and then giving up a home run, and the game later ending with the bases loaded on a called third strike.) I need to remember that there's very little I can actually do to influence on-the-field play, it's just a computer simulation playing out and accept that a lot of times my guys are just going to not deliver.

Anyone else ever feel this way? Or maybe I am just too uptight.

I was having an issue with simming the games and seeing that the AI inexplicably was using a pinch hitter in late innings for some players, even though the player being taken out was a better hitter in just about every way. They both bat on the same side too. I mainly only want a pinch hitter if a reliever comes on using the opposite hand from the starter, and the pinch hitter would offer a platoon advantage. I started playing out some games because of that, just to watch and wait for the relievers and manage this situation myself...

I didn't notice of any poor decisions like that, except for things that appeared to just be visual problems, like players seeming to run slower just so they are sure to get out, or fielders holding onto the ball to give the runner time to reach the base on what looks like an easy out.

[Qeltar]

Yeah those are just weaknesses in the graphical engine that I'm sure they'll sort out. The sim has already decided what the outcome will be on each play, it just needs to display it in a more pleasing manner. (My pet peeve are the bugs bunny throws on infield hits, especially comebackers.. but I know this will be improved.)

I hate simming my games because of some of what you mentioned... the AI is pretty good but it's still not human. Like I simmed one game and one of my top relievers got hammered for 5 runs on a bunch of hits and walks in one inning in a close game. That would never happen playing out a game because if I can tell a reliever just "doesn't have it" on a given day, he gets the hook. I don't hang good pitchers out to dry when they are getting hammered (except SPs in the early innings if I don't have a LR available, especially since LRs are a weak point in the game right now.)

I sometimes just get frustrated when players don't deliver. I mean, now that I think about it, it's exactly the same as if I were watching a real life baseball game on TV... when your guys get 1st and 3rd with nobody out and can't get a run home, you want to punch something. Even worse when you are being evaluated based on it...

But all in all, still prefer playing the games out. At least I can manage my bullpen so they aren't all wiped out for the next game...

[bigd51]

There are two things I'd strongly recommend you take into consideration:

1. Forget about ERA. ERA, alone, doesn't account for the quality of your defense. Instead, consider going the advanced analytics route and pay more attention to a pitcher's FIP and FIP- stats.

(For those unaware of what FIP/FIP- is...)

Why FIP and FIP- ? Because FIP isolates Earned Runs that ONLY your pitcher is completely responsible for (i.e. Strikeouts, Walks, Hit batters, HR's). Or in other words, any ER that doesn't require assistance from your defense.

Example: A line-drive is hit between SS and 3B. Andrelton Simmons, who's one of, if not THE, best defensive SS's in the league makes a ridiculous catch for the out. The pitcher's ERA goes down, even though Simba was largely responsible for saving a base hit and possible ER.

Now take the same exact hit, but replace Simba w/ an average SS who doesn't have the reaction time and/or range to get to it like Simba could, and it's a base hit. The next batter hits a 2 run HR, and your pitcher is credited w/ 2 ER's and his ERA goes up accordingly.

FIP gives you a much better way of analyzing how good a pitcher really is on his own. And it's really simple to understand because the values are similar to how you judge a pitcher's ERA (i.e. 3.00 ERA is excellent, 3.00 FIP is excellent/ 4.00 ERA is average, 4.00 FIP is average)

So, if a pitcher has a 5.00 ERA, but a 3.60 FIP, that tells you your pitcher is actually pitching well, but isn't getting any help from his defense or is just experiencing bad luck. On the flip side, if a pitcher has a 3.60 ERA, but a 5.00 FIP, that means your pitcher is pitching very poorly, but is getting a lot of help from his defense or has been very lucky.

A general baseline for FIP would be:

3.20 - Excellent
3.50 - Great
3.80 - Good
4.20 - Average
4.40 - Below Avg
4.70 - Poor
5.00 - Awful

FIP is also a much better long-term assessment of a pitcher's ability. While a pitcher's ERA can fluctuate wildly from year to year, his FIP will usually stay fairly consistent.

FIP- does the same as FIP, except it takes extra factors into account, such as the type of ball-park he's playing in (i.e. a pitcher-friendly ball park compared to a hitter friendly ball-park). This is also easy to measure because it operates as 100 being the league average. The lower his FIP- , the better. The general baseline for this would be:

70 - Excellent
80 - Great
90 - Good
100 - Average
110 - Below Avg
115 - Poor
125 - Awful

You can read more about FIP and FIP- here, as well as just about any other advanced stat. I've been using FIP exclusively for a while now instead of ERA, and I've built some pretty decent staffs. Much more often than not, it doesn't let me down. (And credit to OOTP for actually integrating it properly)

2. Your coaches matter. A LOT. Their ratings are based on a 1 to 200 scale. If you have a pitching coach w/ a really high "Teach Pitching" rating, more often than not, your pitchers can "over-perform". And depending on the type of pitching coach (Power, Finesse, Groundballers, Neutral), it can also help in production and development of your pitchers depending on their type. His "Handle Player/Veterans/Rookies ratings may also play a part, but I can't say for sure.

Of course, the only way to view coaches ratings would be to turn on Commish Mode and view the Editor in a coaches profile. With Commish Mode off, the Editor tab won't even be visible, so w/o it, all you have to go by is Reputation (which is misleading, because a horrible pitching coach can earn a good rep w/ an All-Star staff, while one w/ an inexperienced rep. could get great production and/or development w/ an average one because his ratings are high.

Trevor Bauer accused the Astro's pitchers of cheating and Collin McHugh responded:

If only there was this thing where people who had been around baseball a long time taught people who hadn’t been around as long. Imagine the possiblity for improvement yr over yr! We could call it coaching!

In summary, pay more attention to FIP (you can find it in a pitcher's Profile under Pitching Stats > click the View drop-down box > Expanded Stats 2) and hire a coach w/ high ratings. Both will go a long, long way in helping you find/develop pitchers.

[Qeltar]

Superb post, thank you!

I do look at FIP. But since I'm mostly dealing with young guys I am highly reliant on ratings.

What I am discovering that is control is the most important stat for a pitcher. (Maybe everyone else knew that already.) I have a couple of pitchers with stats like 65/45/45 and they keep getting clobbered. Once in a while they pitch well, but not consistently. Meanwhile I have a guy who is 55/35/55 and should be doing poorly but always seems to do well. It's not just the walks either, they seem to overall give up fewer runs.

But mostly, I think the issue is that I am still in the second year of a rebuild and most of my starters just simply aren't very good ("yet" in some cases, in others this is as good as it gets.)

These are guys I traded for and was very excited about at the time -- forgetting that they replaced even WORSE guys, so they were an improvement, but that doesn't mean "good."

The interaction with the defense is important too as you state. So is the offense. I have one guy responsible for 40% of my player budget who so far has an OPS of .564. Another regular -- who I should have sent for a rehab assignment but I didn't know there was such a thing -- has an OPS of .343.

I know about the coaching thing and my coach focuses on finesse pitchers and... maybe I just discovered why my high-control guys do better than my high-stuff guys. Damn. (EDIT: But nobody on my team shows up in his "has greater influence" list. Weird.)

I don't think I can really replace him though. There aren't many good pitching coaches who want to work for Miami. And he does have the "gets along well with younger players and has a great influence on them" tag. I play with commissioner's mode off except for the brief check of this or that.

Thanks again.

PS Given the rarity of decent SPs of any type, I can't afford to specialize in a type. Do you recommend a "neutral" pitching coach?

[jfb8300]

Too bad FIP, amongst dozens of other crucial meterics, cannot be selected in a search filter. Hope a future patch can remedy that.

[bigd51]

Originally Posted by Qeltar

PS Given the rarity of decent SPs of any type, I can't afford to specialize in a type. Do you recommend a "neutral" pitching coach?

Coaching "focus" is one thing I haven't been able to figure out. I'm sure there's some rhyme or reason behind them... but I haven't been able to find anything to correlate either way.

I have a Contact hitting coach on my team. Ozzie Albies has a 70/70 (Current/Potential on a 20/80 scale) rating at Contact, but he doesn't show up on my coach's Player Dev/Influence list. On the other hand, I have a Contact hitting coach in one of my rookie leagues. A CF on that team only has a Contact rating of 30/35 and he does show up on the coach's Player Dev/Influence list.

So, as you can see, those Influence lists are all over the place. Never have been able to put a finger on what the game bases it's player types on. The only one, to me, that is clear cut is Groundball coaches and Groundball pitchers.

As for Neutral coaches... the Dodgers in my league right now have Neutral hitting and pitching coaches. A lot of the top teams in the league have at least one Neutral coach. Dave Eiland is the pitching coach for the Mets and he's Neutral. He's reached Legendary rep, and while the Mets have a top pitching staff, Eiland also has a 160 Teach Pitching rating when looking at his Editor. So he'd likely be a good coach even w/o a top-flight staff.

So I can't say "yes, absolutely go w/ a Neutral coach", but at the same time, there's no reason to say you shouldn't. If you don't have a lot of players on your team of any specific type, then theoretically, going w/ a Neutral coach couldn't hurt (unless his Editor ratings are drastically lower than your current coach). I think the quality of the coach all comes down to their Editor ratings. A good coach will be a good coach, regardless of what his specific focus is.

[Grafton19]

Man this might be the post of the year. I dug into the stats last night and most of my picthers suck, but thank you very much for this

[Clavette]

I personally go with groundball pitchers, groundball pitching coach, and good defense.

Ive had my best success with this strategy

[Qeltar]

I'm starting to move more towards groundball pitchers also. Tired of all the home runs. But with so little stock of pitchers it's hard to be choosy.

When I peruse the league I notice what someone else said before: there's just very few good pitchers in the game, for a variety of reasons. I'm having trouble trading for good pitchers because EVERY team has a shortage of decent starters, so nobody wants to let them go.

I just checked the upcoming FA starters for the end of this season (and it's only April). The number of SPs with 3 stars or higher rating coming onto the market? 5. And one has a major injury. I think most teams are locking these guys up as soon as they can.

The total number of active SPs rated 4 stars or above in all of MLB in this save: 12. That compares with 22 position players. Maybe just statistical variance, but there just aren't a lot of really good pitchers period.

It's just a scarce resource. Which is why I am going to continue with my general plan of scouting and trade-hunting for guys with potential. But at this point the AI wants the moon and stars even for 19 year old guys with marginal potentials, many of whom will bust. I hit "make this work" on some guy who would only be a mid-rotation guy even if he fully develops, and they want an equal caliber pitcher plus an established position player.

I do like the challenge though. I will find a way to keep stocking the farm.

bigd51: For whatever reason, the personnel interface seems to think most of my pitchers are not power, finesse OR groundball. Most of them show up under none of those lists.

I have to admit that the current way coaches work is so unnecessarily opaque that it is very tempting to turn on commissioner mode. Without it you are just stabbing in the dark, and while RL has some uncertainty, it shouldn't be THIS bad.

[jerichoalar]

Originally Posted by Clavette

I personally go with groundball pitchers, groundball pitching coach, and good defense.

Ive had my best success with this strategy

Do you shift a lot too and focus on using catchers with low CERA (as a proxy for pitch framing) because if so you're channeling GM Neal Huntington!

[RchW]

Originally Posted by jfb8300

Too bad FIP, amongst dozens of other crucial meterics, cannot be selected in a search filter. Hope a future patch can remedy that.

Agreed there need to be more choices and customization in that area.

[Grafton19]

I don’t mind FB pitchers.

[bigd51]

Originally Posted by Qeltar

bigd51: For whatever reason, the personnel interface seems to think most of my pitchers are not power, finesse OR groundball. Most of them show up under none of those lists.

Groundballers are the easiest to identify. Check your pitchers GB/FB Frequency in his profile (above his Velocity rating). If it says Groundball or Extreme Groundball, then he will for sure show up in a Groundball coaches Influence list. If your pitcher's GB/FB rating is Neutral, Flyball, or Extreme Flyball, he won't. I know for certain, if you have a Groundball pitching coach but see no players in his Influence list, then you don't actually have any Groundball pitchers.

As for the other two (Power and Finesse), well, those are just as hit and miss as the Contact hitter/coach example I gave in my other post. I rarely see players show up on a Finesse coaches list either. Same w/ hitting coaches who focus on Patience. I see power pitchers/hitters show up... but I have a Power pitching coach on my team and a RP w/ 80/80 Stuff and a velocity of 99-101, yet he's not considered a power pitcher for some reason. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have to admit that the current way coaches work is so unnecessarily opaque that it is very tempting to turn on commissioner mode. Without it you are just stabbing in the dark, and while RL has some uncertainty, it shouldn't be THIS bad.

There is a way to tell if Managers and Bench Coaches have good Editor ratings or not w/o directly viewing the ratings via Commish Mode...

When you click on the Relationship tab for Managers and Bench Coaches, it has that rating for Player Development and Player Relationships. They either say Excellent (Blue), Good (Green), Average (mostly Yellow but can sometimes be Green), Below Average (Orange), or Poor (Red). If it says Excellent for Player Development, the manager/bench coach will 100% have excellent Editor ratings. If it says Poor, he will 100% have poor Editor ratings.

Unlike a managers reputation (which largely depends on the overall team success), those Player Dev. ratings directly correlate to the Editor. So look at hiring managers w/ Good or Excellent Dev. ratings, especially for your minor league teams (where the main goal is developing players).

Pitching and Hitting coaches, on the other hand, do not have these "worded" ratings in their relationship tab, so it's impossible to know what you're getting under the hood w/o using the Editor... but at least you won't be stabbing in the dark w/ managers.

[Qeltar]

Thanks. When I started this Miami fiasco, I spent hours poring through every manager, pitching coach and hitting coach for each MiLB team to find the best possible ones (that would work for me) and it was based entirely on those ratings and the comment about working with young players.

In many cases I had to settle for "yellow" but I got some "greens." Just the way it is in the minors I guess.

Anyway, thanks for the confirmation that my hunch on those things was correct. I feel I've done the best I can.. now I just have to hope for the best. When contracts are about to expire I do go to see what else might be available for an "upgrade" too.

As for the pitcher types, yeah, aside from groundballers, it's a mystery. I do look for those guys but as mentioned, any decent starter is a rare gem so you can't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Here's hoping for a coaching system overhaul in an upcoming version...

[Grafton19]

The main thing I like is not trying to match my personnel by pitcher. I just kind of like to free wheel and see what works. My team is bad, so it's encouraging to see young guys step up. The only thing I delegate is my assistant GM makes all the moves for who goes up and down because that is a lot of work but I've started to manage everything else, lined up some pitching staff, etc., but the accident permission is needed. I don't spend all my time playing OOTP and the one time almost won the World Series I clicked the wrong button and gave up a homerun in game seven and I haven't been close since, but I feel finally comfortable enough playing every game where I have impact good or bad. The more you know about the game the more you learn. I could start over with the information I learned but eventually it will pay off.

[Qeltar]

I just can't do this any more. Every game is so damned frustrating. Especially all the damned walks. I spend all my time trying to get guys with decent control and it's still a damned walkathon EVERY SINGLE TIME.

Meanwhile I face a 45-45-45 pitcher and my stupid offense does nothing. And of course, he gives up 1 walk in 7 innings.

I finally get a lead, put in a good rated pitcher, and he walks the bases loaded and gives up a grand slam. I about punched my monitor.

Thanks to everyone here, you guys are great. I've uninstalled the game for now, maybe I'll try it again in a few weeks. If not, all the best and thanks for putting up with me.

ETA: To be clear, I know the issue is with me, not with the game. All the RNG and the feeling of helplessness as my guys continually screw up just drives me insane. I guess I'm not cut out to be GM.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Qeltar

Thanks to everyone here, you guys are great. I've uninstalled the game for now, maybe I'll try it again in a few weeks. If not, all the best and thanks for putting up with me.

Ok, see you tomorrow.

[Qeltar]

Very gracious.

I don't know if I'll play this long-term or not, but I do know that I've read my last post from you.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Timofmars

I was having an issue with simming the games and seeing that the AI inexplicably was using a pinch hitter in late innings for some players, even though the player being taken out was a better hitter in just about every way. They both bat on the same side too. I mainly only want a pinch hitter if a reliever comes on using the opposite hand from the starter, and the pinch hitter would offer a platoon advantage. I started playing out some games because of that, just to watch and wait for the relievers and manage this situation myself...

That is exactly why I sim my games instead of playing them out. I feel like I get too big of an advantage over the AI with in game management since the AI is constantly making bad decisions. One of my pet peeves is when the AI pinch hits in the 8th inning for your gold glove but light hitting shortstop in a game you are leading by a couple of runs just because you have runners on base. The other thing I saw often but haven't tested in OOTP 19 yet was when the AI would make a double switch and then pinch hit for the guy the used for the switch in the very next inning.

The AI also isn't very efficient when using the bench as it will pinch hit for a guy in a spot that makes sense because of him being a platoon guy but not use the guy he platoons with as the pinch hitter. So then the AI still needs to bring in a guy on defense the following inning since the pinch hitter it used doesn't play the position & now you've burned two bench guys instead of just one.

[Qeltar]

You know, that's a really interesting point you bring up.

I've been playing my MLB games because I find that I lose more often if I don't. But why shouldn't I? There's no human controlling the other teams, so winning games with worse players using better strategy really is an unfair advantage.

And this plays into my personal issues too. (Hey, I may be neurotic and insane, but at least I'm honest.) I realized while I was thinking about it, that I don't play out my minor league games, the guys there screw up plenty too, but I don't get emotionally invested in those messups, I just view it as part of baseball. Because I am not playing the games and watching the mess unfold before my eyes as I try to stop it.

Maybe what I really need to do is stop being the manager, and just be the GM. I can focus on what I enjoy (building the franchise, especially by looking for good trades and undervalued FAs) and not get worked up as I watch games get blown one batter at a time. It will also allow time to flow more quickly so I can better see the results of long-term plans and signings.

Thanks, Dyzalot.