OVR & POT ratings still don't make sense

Rosco Peabody · 05-23-2018, 05:45 PM

I'm going to keep citing examples of this because it bugs me. The game weighs running and defense far too highly in my opinion. Those are really important parts of the game, but not accurate to what real life is.

Look at these two players.
Joey Mwai has really really good individual ratings, yet OVR, he's only a 52... The guy is on pace to have a .300/.405/.505 with 32 HRs

The other guy is a prospect who, yes has poor defense and running, but look at his batting potential ratings! That's the type of potential for a guy who will win MVP awards, yet he's only rated as a 61 Potential??

In the real life MLB, this guy is considered the best batting prospect in the game regardless of whether or not he's a great fielder...

ThePretender · 05-23-2018, 05:51 PM

It's likely because his turn DP is so low. If the turn DP was even 30 I'd think it'd be higher.

Rosco Peabody · 05-23-2018, 05:54 PM

Why would that be important for 1B or 3B?

That's not the reason. Most corner infielders are low

stealofhome · 05-23-2018, 06:01 PM

I've seen this quite often too where many of the ratings are high but turn DP is low. There is a cutoff for Turn DP rating (using the 1-250 ratings in the editor) where a 2B/SS must be at least 60 to even get a rating and a 3B must be at least 20. What are your evaluation settings?

Rosco Peabody · 05-23-2018, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stealofhome

I've seen this quite often too where many of the ratings are high but turn DP is low. There is a cutoff for Turn DP rating (using the 1-250 ratings in the editor) where a 2B/SS must be at least 60 to even get a rating and a 3B must be at least 20. What are your evaluation settings?

First of all, what do you mean "evaluation settings"? Which settings?

Secondly, if "turning DP" for a 1B or 3B (or really even middle infielder for that matter) are really that much of a difference maker, than that would be a HUGE problem...

Picture a pitcher having a STUFF rating of 76, MOVEMENT of 75 and CONTROL of 78, but he's only 52 OVR for a pitcher because he doesn't have a great pickoff move... it'd be like..."What?!?!?!" Who cares!?!?

stealofhome · 05-23-2018, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosco Peabody

First of all, what do you mean "evaluation settings"? Which settings?

The AI evaluation settings - what percent are ratings/current year/previous year, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosco Peabody

Secondly, if "turning DP" for a 1B or 3B (or really even middle infielder for that matter) are really that much of a difference maker, than that would be a HUGE problem...

Picture a pitcher having a STUFF rating of 76, MOVEMENT of 75 and CONTROL of 78, but he's only 52 OVR for a pitcher because he doesn't have a great pickoff move... it'd be like..."What?!?!?!" Who cares!?!?

I agree that he shouldn't be evaluated as a 1B based on his double play raitng. I just wonder if the game is giving him a lower rating because he isn't capable of playing anywhere else? Not sure if the game takes that into account.

Rosco Peabody · 05-23-2018, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stealofhome

The AI evaluation settings - what percent are ratings/current year/previous year, etc.

I felt like putting a little more weight on current stats because I felt like that was more accurate to real life, ie- if a guy has a high AVG and a lot of HRs for the year, he is considered a good player even if he's never done it before (ex. Aaron Judge last year).

I made it 25/55/15/5

However, this didn't influence it all that much. Even guys who have great stats for the current year still can have low OVR ratings.

ThePretender · 05-23-2018, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosco Peabody

Why would that be important for 1B or 3B?

That's not the reason. Most corner infielders are low

Because the game settings say that avoid dp had to be a specific amount for 3B or the game assumes he's incapable of playing. It's likely why he has no position ratings at 3b despite being a player profile of 3b.

Sweed · 05-23-2018, 08:04 PM

Switch his position to 1b and see what the rating is. He is currently being compared to other thirdbasemen and is going to be "giving back runs" with his poor fielding that he is making with his bat. At 1b he won't give back those runs because he can field that position, and won't have to turn the double play, just complete it.

Why is DP important? Well it's the difference between ending an inning allowing no runs and having an inning go on, with a base runner, giving the opposition another opportunity to score. Each team only gets 27 outs in a 9 inning game, they are very valuable. Giving a team "extra outs" because you can't turn a simple double play is a big deal.

I'd run Mwai out at 1b every day but there is no way in hell he is getting anywhere near 3b on my team.

Rosco Peabody · 05-23-2018, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweed

Switch his position to 1b and see what the rating is.

OVR stayed the same, POT went up to 64.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweed

Why is DP important? Well it's the difference between ending an inning allowing no runs and having an inning go on, with a base runner, giving the opposition another opportunity to score. Each team only gets 27 outs in a 9 inning game, they are very valuable. Giving a team "extra outs" because you can't turn a simple double play is a big deal.

Okay, but this is SO DUMB if it influences OVR rating more than 1 or 2 points. So you're telling me that if a 3Bman is an MVP caliber hitter and isn't great at turning a double play that he would be considered barely average?!?

Do you remember Miguel Cabrera in 2013? He played most of the year at 3B and wasn't great defensively. He was considered average that year, right? NO! He won the MVP!!! It's because hitting is so much more important than fielding in everyone not associated with OOTP's eyes

Sweed · 05-24-2018, 01:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosco Peabody

OVR stayed the same, POT went up to 64.

Okay, but this is SO DUMB if it influences OVR rating more than 1 or 2 points. So you're telling me that if a 3Bman is an MVP caliber hitter and isn't great at turning a double play that he would be considered barely average?!?

No, I'm telling you your guy, Mwai, wouldn't be playing third base. But, with the position change to 1b, he is now rated on potential higher than your 20 year old at 1b and that 20 yr old has a world of potential himself at the plate. Seems right to me.

The more I look at it the more I am surprised and disappointed that OOTP gave him a 53 as a third baseman.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rosco Peabody

Do you remember Miguel Cabrera in 2013? He played most of the year at 3B and wasn't great defensively. He was considered average that year, right? NO! He won the MVP!!! It's because hitting is so much more important than fielding in everyone not associated with OOTP's eyes

He turned 24 DP's which placed him 6th in the AL.

Cabrera's Fielding pct. .958 in 2013
AL total F-Pct at 3b 2013 .959

His range factor\9 was last among 3d with over 1,000 innings but his DP's at 24 was with the pack. Of 9 players with 1,000 + innings 6 were between 22-28. One was at 19, and top 2 were 42 and 38.

There is no comparison to be made between your player and Cabrera at thirdbase. With Cabrera's range I'd guesstimante he'd be around a 40-45/100, lowest end of average? Your guy is not any where near average at third, he's a 7 on the 100 scale. Any manager that plays him at 3b well, shouldn't have a job.

Rosco Peabody · 05-24-2018, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweed

No, I'm telling you your guy, Mwai, wouldn't be playing third base.

Really?? Turning plays at third base really isn't that important...

But I will go into commissioner mode, change the turning DPs and rerun scouting, just to show you...

Rosco Peabody · 05-24-2018, 09:19 AM

Here... still the same OVR rating...

Rosco Peabody · 05-24-2018, 09:21 AM

Even so, the idea that turning double plays at third base could influence a player's OVR rating that much is foolish. Poor fielding batters have always been considered good players.

In other words, are you telling me that every MVP winner has been a good fielder?

Rosco Peabody · 05-24-2018, 09:31 AM

Juan Gonzalez won the MVP award in 1998 a -2 Rtot and 1996 with a -11 Rtot

Edwin Encarnacion is an AWFUL fielder and has finished just outside the top ten in MVP twice and been an all-star three times

Jason Giambi was considered one of the better hitters of his day, won an MVP award, and played AWFUL defense

Mike Piazza has the 7th best Catching WAR of all time despite having the second worst dWAR of all time

In other words, fielding shouldn't be worth nearly as much as hitting.
Maybe a 5 point swing or so, but that's it.

Rosco Peabody · 05-24-2018, 09:40 AM

I feel like it's crazy. Are we going to let a guy's bunting ability affect his OVR score too?

stealofhome · 05-24-2018, 10:51 AM

What do you have to change to make the player match what you expect his ratings to be with those batting ratings?

Rosco Peabody · 05-24-2018, 11:46 AM

Nope sorry, I reloaded it and he went up to a 71 as a third baseman simply because of changing his turn double play stat.

So that actually makes my case better, in fact.

This guy is rated a 53 instead of a 71 just because he has trouble with the double play

stealofhome · 05-24-2018, 11:49 AM

Do you have the ratings by position or all players rated together? Not sure what the actual setting says but something like that under the AI evaluation settings area.

BIG17EASY · 05-24-2018, 12:00 PM

It sounds to me like your biggest problem is that you pay too much attention to overall and potential ratings. It's long been understood that the most effective way to play the game is to focus on individual ratings. Judging players by overall rating way too simplistic. I understand that the overall rating provides a quick (and fun, to some) way to compare players without putting any work into it, but I think you'll find you enjoy the game a lot more if you turn off overall and potential ratings. Then you can appreciate this player for what he is -- a damn good hitter who won't hurt you at first base and can play third base, if needed.

(On a separate note, I would argue that the problem here is that no player should have that high of ratings in three infield ratings and be that low in turn DP, especially a corner infielder. They have the easiest job in turning double plays. It's the middle infielders that have their work cut out for them.)

05-23-2018, 05:45 PM	#1
Rosco Peabody All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South of Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 1,092	OVR & POT ratings still don't make sense I'm going to keep citing examples of this because it bugs me. The game weighs running and defense far too highly in my opinion. Those are really important parts of the game, but not accurate to what real life is. Look at these two players. Joey Mwai has really really good individual ratings, yet OVR, he's only a 52... The guy is on pace to have a .300/.405/.505 with 32 HRs The other guy is a prospect who, yes has poor defense and running, but look at his batting potential ratings! That's the type of potential for a guy who will win MVP awards, yet he's only rated as a 61 Potential?? In the real life MLB, this guy is considered the best batting prospect in the game regardless of whether or not he's a great fielder... Last edited by Rosco Peabody; 09-13-2018 at 10:47 PM.

05-24-2018, 09:19 AM	#13
Rosco Peabody All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South of Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 1,092	Here... still the same OVR rating... Last edited by Rosco Peabody; 09-13-2018 at 10:47 PM.

05-23-2018, 05:51 PM	#2
ThePretender All Star Starter Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,331	It's likely because his turn DP is so low. If the turn DP was even 30 I'd think it'd be higher.

05-23-2018, 05:54 PM	#3
Rosco Peabody All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South of Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 1,092	Why would that be important for 1B or 3B? That's not the reason. Most corner infielders are low

05-23-2018, 06:01 PM	#4
stealofhome Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,282	I've seen this quite often too where many of the ratings are high but turn DP is low. There is a cutoff for Turn DP rating (using the 1-250 ratings in the editor) where a 2B/SS must be at least 60 to even get a rating and a 3B must be at least 20. What are your evaluation settings?

05-23-2018, 08:04 PM	#9
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,921	Switch his position to 1b and see what the rating is. He is currently being compared to other thirdbasemen and is going to be "giving back runs" with his poor fielding that he is making with his bat. At 1b he won't give back those runs because he can field that position, and won't have to turn the double play, just complete it. Why is DP important? Well it's the difference between ending an inning allowing no runs and having an inning go on, with a base runner, giving the opposition another opportunity to score. Each team only gets 27 outs in a 9 inning game, they are very valuable. Giving a team "extra outs" because you can't turn a simple double play is a big deal. I'd run Mwai out at 1b every day but there is no way in hell he is getting anywhere near 3b on my team.

05-24-2018, 09:21 AM	#14
Rosco Peabody All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South of Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 1,092	Even so, the idea that turning double plays at third base could influence a player's OVR rating that much is foolish. Poor fielding batters have always been considered good players. In other words, are you telling me that every MVP winner has been a good fielder?

05-24-2018, 09:31 AM	#15
Rosco Peabody All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South of Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 1,092	Juan Gonzalez won the MVP award in 1998 a -2 Rtot and 1996 with a -11 Rtot Edwin Encarnacion is an AWFUL fielder and has finished just outside the top ten in MVP twice and been an all-star three times Jason Giambi was considered one of the better hitters of his day, won an MVP award, and played AWFUL defense Mike Piazza has the 7th best Catching WAR of all time despite having the second worst dWAR of all time In other words, fielding shouldn't be worth nearly as much as hitting. Maybe a 5 point swing or so, but that's it.

05-24-2018, 09:40 AM	#16
Rosco Peabody All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South of Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 1,092	I feel like it's crazy. Are we going to let a guy's bunting ability affect his OVR score too?

05-24-2018, 10:51 AM	#17
stealofhome Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,282	What do you have to change to make the player match what you expect his ratings to be with those batting ratings?

05-24-2018, 11:46 AM	#18
Rosco Peabody All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: South of Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 1,092	Nope sorry, I reloaded it and he went up to a 71 as a third baseman simply because of changing his turn double play stat. So that actually makes my case better, in fact. This guy is rated a 53 instead of a 71 just because he has trouble with the double play

05-24-2018, 11:49 AM	#19
stealofhome Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,282	Do you have the ratings by position or all players rated together? Not sure what the actual setting says but something like that under the AI evaluation settings area.

05-24-2018, 12:00 PM	#20
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	It sounds to me like your biggest problem is that you pay too much attention to overall and potential ratings. It's long been understood that the most effective way to play the game is to focus on individual ratings. Judging players by overall rating way too simplistic. I understand that the overall rating provides a quick (and fun, to some) way to compare players without putting any work into it, but I think you'll find you enjoy the game a lot more if you turn off overall and potential ratings. Then you can appreciate this player for what he is -- a damn good hitter who won't hurt you at first base and can play third base, if needed. (On a separate note, I would argue that the problem here is that no player should have that high of ratings in three infield ratings and be that low in turn DP, especially a corner infielder. They have the easiest job in turning double plays. It's the middle infielders that have their work cut out for them.)