Starting pitchers... sure are frustrating. lol - Page 3

Reed · 05-13-2018, 08:23 PM

Qeltar, I am impressed how quickly you have picked up the game. I have been playing since 2013 and you now know far more than I do about OOTP.
Anyway, I use to play as manager but decided long ago it gave me to much of an advantage over the opponents AI manager. For the past 3-4 years I just play as GM. I have a 16 team league and I “watch” my team play each of the other teams in the league once during the season. This way I get to see the strength/weaknesses of my team as well as get a sense of the other players in the league. I frequently shake my head at some of the decisions my manager makes but then realize the manager for the opposing team will make similar questionable decisions.
Some may think you post to much but I think it is fine. Your posts are thought provoking and challenging to some of our ingrained concepts.

Dyzalot · 05-13-2018, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

You know, that's a really interesting point you bring up.

I've been playing my MLB games because I find that I lose more often if I don't. But why shouldn't I? There's no human controlling the other teams, so winning games with worse players using better strategy really is an unfair advantage.

And this plays into my personal issues too. (Hey, I may be neurotic and insane, but at least I'm honest.) I realized while I was thinking about it, that I don't play out my minor league games, the guys there screw up plenty too, but I don't get emotionally invested in those messups, I just view it as part of baseball. Because I am not playing the games and watching the mess unfold before my eyes as I try to stop it.

Maybe what I really need to do is stop being the manager, and just be the GM. I can focus on what I enjoy (building the franchise, especially by looking for good trades and undervalued FAs) and not get worked up as I watch games get blown one batter at a time. It will also allow time to flow more quickly so I can better see the results of long-term plans and signings.

Thanks, Dyzalot.

I still call myself the "manager" so I can set the lineups and pitching rotation but I sim a week at a time, stopping for injuries and other events such as trade offers. I usually "watch" opening day & the 1st game of each month to get an idea of how the AI is using my players to see if I need to make adjustments in the strategy or substitution settings.

Qeltar · 05-13-2018, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I still call myself the "manager" so I can set the lineups and pitching rotation but I sim a week at a time, stopping for injuries and other events such as trade offers. I usually "watch" opening day & the 1st game of each month to get an idea of how the AI is using my players to see if I need to make adjustments in the strategy or substitution settings.

Okay this was definitely the problem. Managing the games. I just stopped doing that (I'm still the manager for the same reasons you mentioned) and I just hit "next day" and whatever happens, happens. It's much better. And it lets me be a GM, which (IMO) is the point of this game.

I had gotten to the point where I was dreading when I had to play games out.

I am still going to go day to day, I like to check the waiver wire and poke around at trade opportunities. But this is the way to go for me at least, for sure.

I really appreciate your timely post.

The LOL in this: the first two games I decide not to play out? A 3-0 shutout with 2 walks and a 2-0 shutout with 0 walks. Maybe the problem is I am a bad manager!

Reed: Thank you for the kind words. I know that my posts are somewhat of an "acquired taste" and not for everyone, and I do tend to go "all in" when I start something. I don't mean to take over the forum or anything and sorry for any disruption.

PS I have a guy in AAA I got for a song off some team that had him languishing somewhere. His current slash after 159 PAs is .397/.468/.728 -- 12 homers, 5 doubles, 2 triples. But he's a 1B and I have an all-star 1B. So I'm trying to make him into a right fielder. He's not going to be a good one... but I need that offense! Wishing I was in the AL right now...

ETA: Team is now 6-0 since I stopped managing, including 4 shutouts. Now that I am no longer watching, all the pitchers are throwing strikes and getting outs. LOL. I think there have been no more than 2 BB in any of these games, where there were I think 8 in the last one I played through. So funny.

BirdWatcher · 05-14-2018, 01:40 PM

I too play as both GM and manager but found some time ago that the micro-managing, in-game management aspects weren't my cup of tea (and that I'm probably not great at them.) Currently, with my fictional league, I am playing out all of my team's games, but letting the AI make all the moves (based, of course, on my overall directions- and I do control the starting lineup and pitcher.) I find this far less frustrating. Though I will jump in occasionally when I believe that a pitcher who clearly doesn't have it that day is being kept in the game too long.
But in my previous primary project (Colorado Rockies historical) I settled into a pattern similar to yours where I simmed day-to-day (usually playing/watching 1 game per week.) The game became much more enjoyable to me once I relinquished some of the in-game control.
Still, I would have a hard time giving that up entirely and just playing as GM.

gmjay74 · 05-15-2018, 06:30 PM

I discovered the performance shift, if you want to call it that, in OOTP 17 and haven't looked back since. Are we all really that bad at calling game activity? I think not.

Some of us are, I would imagine, are pretty good at emulating what we see when we watch baseball on a day to day basis. For whatever reason though, the game seems to penalize us for managing the in-game action.

Perfect example in this games iteration, I was playing one game per week with the Dodgers and with the exception of opening day, I was getting decimated while on the other hand when I simmed, I saw (box score) 10k's by Ryu (before he DL'd/Tommy John), 4 for 4 with 2HR performances by the likes of Rob Segedin, Logan Forsythe, Kike Hernandez...if I played, I was lucky to squeeze a hit out of Seager, Bellinger, etc.

So, as I found true in 17 and then 18, I will continue being GM in this years version as well.

Qeltar · 05-16-2018, 09:37 AM

It seems like a bit of a stretch to suggest that there's "penalizing" going on here. And it would be hard to prove without a lot of data.

At best I think that if this is happening, it's unintentional.

But I have a hard time understanding how it could happen anyway. It would basically mean they had different engines for when you were playing and when you were simming, which would be a lot of extra work to set up and maintain, and for no apparent benefit. Software companies are not big on such.

My second year Marlins have been bananas since I stopped actively managing, but I don't think it's because of the code. They were a very respectable 21-14 when I stopped. Since then, they have gone 30-9, which is utterly insane.

If anything, I attribute this more to staying healthy, a very strong clubhouse environment (the bar is all the way full now), getting rid of some underperforming starters, some luck with young starters who are playing over their heads, and some commissioner-mode hacking I did to get a couple of players out of season-long morale death spirals.

That last part I really do think does matter and it would be nice to add some mechanism (besides hacking) to deal with players who get into the "play poorly --> get down on performance --> keep playing poorly" vicious circle.

The psychological aspects of professional sports are getting increased attention IRL and hopefully it will make it into OOTP as well. Either that or at least toning down some of the crazy extremes in the morale department.

I had a guy I got in a trade who was languishing somewhere because I recognized his potential. I converted him to a RF because I have an MVP-caliber 1B already, he tore the cover off the ball in AAA, and I promoted him.

He was "unhappy." What?

So I looked at his stats and his "Role on Team" morale was under -3000. That's ridiculous. He made The Show at 24. Any real player in that situation would be thrilled no matter what they were asked to do, much less being put right into a starting position on a contending team.

I think the huge negative number there was a residual from his previous time before the trade. Maybe morale needs to reset or move more strongly when moves are made or something. The only thing I did that could be perceived as a negative was putting him in RF but first basemen aren't usually mentally set on their defensive position nearly as much as some others.

gmjay74 · 05-16-2018, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

At best I think that if this is happening, it's unintentional.

But I have a hard time understanding how it could happen anyway.

My second year Marlins have been bananas since I stopped actively managing, but I don't think it's because of the code. They were a very respectable 21-14 when I stopped. Since then, they have gone 30-9, which is utterly insane.

That's my point, and I am being somewhat facetious when I say being penalized, however, to some degree you've spoken to what I was getting at. Why are they more healthy/happy etc when you don't actively play them than when you do? Are we, as Manager and GMs who pop in to play a game every so often doing something wrong that actively contributes to their poor performance?

To your other point, I believe that the sports psychology aspect can use a bit of tweaking. I remember when the current form was introduced it was poorly put together but has been improved upon greatly since its inception.

Still, being unhappy because of being switched from first base to rf yet performing well...

I wonder how Brandon Belt is handling his transitioning this season IRL .

Qeltar · 05-16-2018, 11:11 AM

The psychology/attitude/interactions with young players have been a pet peeve of mine since I started playing OOTP. I think it is the single most unrealistic aspect of the game right now and removes much of the feeling of immersion for me personally.

Only a handful of RL players behave like OOTP players do -- like spoiled, whiny, immature, unprofessional jerks -- and they quickly get a reputation for it that can trail them for their entire careers. There should be some guys like that in OOTP, but right now nearly all of them have serious attitude problems that would never be seen in real baseball.

Can you imagine a RL baseball player moaning about his "role on the team" when he's promoted to a first-place club and given a starting role at the age of 24? Or a relief pitcher who doesn't even qualify for arbitration deciding he won't even talk to the GM about a contract extension worth millions because he's "not in the mood" -- for two months? Or another relief pitcher not talking to the GM about a contract offer during arbitration because he's "unhappy about transactions," when the GM was going to offer him more than he asked for, and then he lost the case and left half a million on the table for no reason?

High-end veterans can act like prima donnas. Young players can't afford to, and don't. They know that the manager and GM have nearly complete control over their careers, and that everyone is watching and judging their behavior. "Problem children" get blackballed and worse. So why do the vast majority of OOTP players literally behave like children? Worse than children in some cases. I certainly didn't raise mine to act like that.

This is how RL young players behave, at least most of them: http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index...ands_bost.html

If they are going to insist that players behave like spoiled brats, then they should implement an agent system for negotiations at least, and put curbs on the severity of mood swings.

PS I recently read that players can lose morale if you shop them around for trades. That makes no sense to me either.

gmjay74 · 05-16-2018, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

PS I recently read that players can lose morale if you shop them around for trades. That makes no sense to me either.

This one does make a bit more sense.

If you've got an underperforming player with a bloated contract, or you've decided you've had enough with your roster and go into rebuild - whatever the case may be - a person would not likely take kindly to reading about rumors on - insert media outlet here - that the team is shopping him around. The player reads it as "the team has given up on me/doesn't want to honor their contract/etc" and would most likely get a little pissed.

To the rest of your commentary, indeed, the players in general act like a bunch of spoiled snowflakes. I'll assume that the devs intent was to make the environment challenging, however it does seem that the excessiveness of the mood swings are pretty wild. If not managed properly, the clubhouse becomes toxic rapidly and you spend more time managing personalities than managing a team.

There is a balance to be had.

Qeltar · 05-16-2018, 11:53 AM

I guess I interpreted "shopping around" as "making a few discreet calls to some GMs" and not something that would very easily get back to the player. Maybe I was wrong.

As for the clubhouse thing, honestly, I don't think it's done terribly well either. All you really need to do is get a captain (and they are easy to get), get rid of any obvious troublemakers, and win a few games, and it all works out. Has for me anyway, even with a sub-500 team. But the players still act like a bunch of brats. Even ones whose personality says they shouldn't. Even when the team has the best winning percentage in the league.

The negotiation system is IMO in need of a total overhaul. I actually avoid even talking to players about extensions for fear that I will offend someone's tender sensibilities by not offering him enough millions of dollars at a time when he is years from free agency. It's silly.

Young players should treat managers and GMs with nearly complete deference. That doesn't mean letting them take advantage of them, it just means being respectful and polite. If the goal is challenge, then great -- make them tough negotiators, like some of the GMs. But the prima donna stuff and "I don't want to talk to you any more" petulance should IMO be deep-sixed.

I remember at the end of last season, I offered a minor league contract to some sub-replacement-level pitcher I had gotten in a trade. He sent me an email acting all outraged and going on about "how could I make him this offer after all we've been through together" or something. This guy had never played in the majors, so we had never "been through" anything. He demanded a major league contract even though he barely was good enough for AAA. As if any young player, especially with marginal skills, would ever act like that.

stealofhome · 05-16-2018, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmjay74

I discovered the performance shift, if you want to call it that, in OOTP 17 and haven't looked back since. Are we all really that bad at calling game activity? I think not.

Some of us are, I would imagine, are pretty good at emulating what we see when we watch baseball on a day to day basis. For whatever reason though, the game seems to penalize us for managing the in-game action.

I've seen many people mention this idea and it has intrigued me to do actual testing of it. The only test I can think is to create a league with minimal randomness - no injuries, morale, TCR, etc and then backup at the beginning of the year. Manage through 5 times, reloading the backup each time and look at the distribution of runs or wins or whatever. Then sim 5 times and compare the managing distribution with simulating distribution and see if indeed there is a significant difference. Could at least put the idea of anecdotal evidence away with that.

gmjay74 · 05-16-2018, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

I guess I interpreted "shopping around" as "making a few discreet calls to some GMs" and not something that would very easily get back to the player. Maybe I was wrong.

I may have it wrong, certainly not unlike me, however it seems to me that whenever I do shop a player around, it's quite nearly like putting him on the trading block, though the effects are not as immediate. That said, there are people who love to leak juicy gossip, sooo...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qeltar

The negotiation system is IMO in need of a total overhaul. I actually avoid even talking to players about extensions for fear that I will offend someone's tender sensibilities by not offering him enough millions of dollars at a time when he is years from free agency. It's silly.

On this we can agree 100% - I think an agent system may be in order. There are very few professional players who work directly with management on contracts in any sports league, and an agent acts as an intermediary. Perhaps I'll post the suggestion in the wanted items for OOTP 20 - Nevermind, it's already there. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...25#post4325025

gmjay74 · 05-16-2018, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stealofhome

I've seen many people mention this idea and it has intrigued me to do actual testing of it. The only test I can think is to create a league with minimal randomness - no injuries, morale, TCR, etc and then backup at the beginning of the year. Manage through 5 times, reloading the backup each time and look at the distribution of runs or wins or whatever. Then sim 5 times and compare the managing distribution with simulating distribution and see if indeed there is a significant difference. Could at least put the idea of anecdotal evidence away with that.

Ironically, and just for giggles since I was discussing this on the forums yesterday, I ran a "live" game against the Pirates. Won 3-1. Simmed a few games and Alex Wood is now headed to the DL with a week injury...guess I was told

Dr.K · 05-16-2018, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin

Ok, see you tomorrow.

Quality!

RchW · 05-16-2018, 11:36 PM

I find the morale chemistry and personality system well done and not too influential as it should be. It's certainly not in need of major surgery.

Qeltar · 05-17-2018, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gmjay74

On this we can agree 100% - I think an agent system may be in order. There are very few professional players who work directly with management on contracts in any sports league, and an agent acts as an intermediary. Perhaps I'll post the suggestion in the wanted items for OOTP 20 - Nevermind, it's already there. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...25#post4325025

I mean, it wouldn't be necessary to add a layer of agents if the players behaved like they would in the real world and not like 4 year olds who are told they have to finish dinner before they can have dessert.

I honestly don't get the rationale behind how the personality/negotiation/interaction system was designed. Certainly it isn't realistic in any sense that I can think of. The oddball troublemaker, fine. The haughty "talent" I get (Barry Bonds type). But random nobody minor leaguers with chips on their shoulders? I wonder why the devs want players portrayed this way.

gdoggcasey · 05-23-2018, 11:15 PM

Interesting thread here. I learned a lot about the game and hopefully picked up some tricks to help me improve. Specifically issues with building a good starting rotation. I thought I was doing something wrong but it seems like the main struggle for most people.

Orcin · 05-23-2018, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdoggcasey

Specifically issues with building a good starting rotation. I thought I was doing something wrong but it seems like the main struggle for most people.

Nah, it's really not that hard.

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Qeltar · 05-24-2018, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gdoggcasey

Interesting thread here. I learned a lot about the game and hopefully picked up some tricks to help me improve. Specifically issues with building a good starting rotation. I thought I was doing something wrong but it seems like the main struggle for most people.

I think it depends on how a particular game shakes out.

In mine at least, 2* SPs are pretty common and they do get hit pretty hard at times. You have to just get used to it, or at least, I have had to.

There are very few SPs that are even 3* in my league, and they command huge premiums in terms of salary and trade demands.

05-14-2018, 01:40 PM	#44
BirdWatcher Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2018 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 4,263	I too play as both GM and manager but found some time ago that the micro-managing, in-game management aspects weren't my cup of tea (and that I'm probably not great at them.) Currently, with my fictional league, I am playing out all of my team's games, but letting the AI make all the moves (based, of course, on my overall directions- and I do control the starting lineup and pitcher.) I find this far less frustrating. Though I will jump in occasionally when I believe that a pitcher who clearly doesn't have it that day is being kept in the game too long. But in my previous primary project (Colorado Rockies historical) I settled into a pattern similar to yours where I simmed day-to-day (usually playing/watching 1 game per week.) The game became much more enjoyable to me once I relinquished some of the in-game control. Still, I would have a hard time giving that up entirely and just playing as GM. Last edited by BirdWatcher; 05-14-2018 at 01:41 PM.

05-15-2018, 06:30 PM	#45
gmjay74 Bat Boy Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: In the desert Posts: 15	I discovered the performance shift, if you want to call it that, in OOTP 17 and haven't looked back since. Are we all really that bad at calling game activity? I think not. Some of us are, I would imagine, are pretty good at emulating what we see when we watch baseball on a day to day basis. For whatever reason though, the game seems to penalize us for managing the in-game action. Perfect example in this games iteration, I was playing one game per week with the Dodgers and with the exception of opening day, I was getting decimated while on the other hand when I simmed, I saw (box score) 10k's by Ryu (before he DL'd/Tommy John), 4 for 4 with 2HR performances by the likes of Rob Segedin, Logan Forsythe, Kike Hernandez...if I played, I was lucky to squeeze a hit out of Seager, Bellinger, etc. So, as I found true in 17 and then 18, I will continue being GM in this years version as well. __________________ Goodyear Ballpark Goodyear, Arizona Spring Training Home of the Cleveland Indians and Cincinnati Reds "I believe managing is like holding a dove in your hand. If you hold it too tightly you kill it, but if you hold it too loosely, you lose it." - Tommy Lasorda "Statistics are used much like a drunk uses a lamppost: for support, not illumination." - Vin Scully

05-16-2018, 09:37 AM	#46
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	It seems like a bit of a stretch to suggest that there's "penalizing" going on here. And it would be hard to prove without a lot of data. At best I think that if this is happening, it's unintentional. But I have a hard time understanding how it could happen anyway. It would basically mean they had different engines for when you were playing and when you were simming, which would be a lot of extra work to set up and maintain, and for no apparent benefit. Software companies are not big on such. My second year Marlins have been bananas since I stopped actively managing, but I don't think it's because of the code. They were a very respectable 21-14 when I stopped. Since then, they have gone 30-9, which is utterly insane. If anything, I attribute this more to staying healthy, a very strong clubhouse environment (the bar is all the way full now), getting rid of some underperforming starters, some luck with young starters who are playing over their heads, and some commissioner-mode hacking I did to get a couple of players out of season-long morale death spirals. That last part I really do think does matter and it would be nice to add some mechanism (besides hacking) to deal with players who get into the "play poorly --> get down on performance --> keep playing poorly" vicious circle. The psychological aspects of professional sports are getting increased attention IRL and hopefully it will make it into OOTP as well. Either that or at least toning down some of the crazy extremes in the morale department. I had a guy I got in a trade who was languishing somewhere because I recognized his potential. I converted him to a RF because I have an MVP-caliber 1B already, he tore the cover off the ball in AAA, and I promoted him. He was "unhappy." What? So I looked at his stats and his "Role on Team" morale was under -3000. That's ridiculous. He made The Show at 24. Any real player in that situation would be thrilled no matter what they were asked to do, much less being put right into a starting position on a contending team. I think the huge negative number there was a residual from his previous time before the trade. Maybe morale needs to reset or move more strongly when moves are made or something. The only thing I did that could be perceived as a negative was putting him in RF but first basemen aren't usually mentally set on their defensive position nearly as much as some others. Last edited by Qeltar; 05-16-2018 at 09:39 AM.

05-16-2018, 11:11 AM	#48
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	The psychology/attitude/interactions with young players have been a pet peeve of mine since I started playing OOTP. I think it is the single most unrealistic aspect of the game right now and removes much of the feeling of immersion for me personally. Only a handful of RL players behave like OOTP players do -- like spoiled, whiny, immature, unprofessional jerks -- and they quickly get a reputation for it that can trail them for their entire careers. There should be some guys like that in OOTP, but right now nearly all of them have serious attitude problems that would never be seen in real baseball. Can you imagine a RL baseball player moaning about his "role on the team" when he's promoted to a first-place club and given a starting role at the age of 24? Or a relief pitcher who doesn't even qualify for arbitration deciding he won't even talk to the GM about a contract extension worth millions because he's "not in the mood" -- for two months? Or another relief pitcher not talking to the GM about a contract offer during arbitration because he's "unhappy about transactions," when the GM was going to offer him more than he asked for, and then he lost the case and left half a million on the table for no reason? High-end veterans can act like prima donnas. Young players can't afford to, and don't. They know that the manager and GM have nearly complete control over their careers, and that everyone is watching and judging their behavior. "Problem children" get blackballed and worse. So why do the vast majority of OOTP players literally behave like children? Worse than children in some cases. I certainly didn't raise mine to act like that. This is how RL young players behave, at least most of them: http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index...ands_bost.html If they are going to insist that players behave like spoiled brats, then they should implement an agent system for negotiations at least, and put curbs on the severity of mood swings. PS I recently read that players can lose morale if you shop them around for trades. That makes no sense to me either. Last edited by Qeltar; 05-16-2018 at 11:16 AM.

05-16-2018, 11:53 AM	#50
Qeltar Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2018 Posts: 382	I guess I interpreted "shopping around" as "making a few discreet calls to some GMs" and not something that would very easily get back to the player. Maybe I was wrong. As for the clubhouse thing, honestly, I don't think it's done terribly well either. All you really need to do is get a captain (and they are easy to get), get rid of any obvious troublemakers, and win a few games, and it all works out. Has for me anyway, even with a sub-500 team. But the players still act like a bunch of brats. Even ones whose personality says they shouldn't. Even when the team has the best winning percentage in the league. The negotiation system is IMO in need of a total overhaul. I actually avoid even talking to players about extensions for fear that I will offend someone's tender sensibilities by not offering him enough millions of dollars at a time when he is years from free agency. It's silly. Young players should treat managers and GMs with nearly complete deference. That doesn't mean letting them take advantage of them, it just means being respectful and polite. If the goal is challenge, then great -- make them tough negotiators, like some of the GMs. But the prima donna stuff and "I don't want to talk to you any more" petulance should IMO be deep-sixed. I remember at the end of last season, I offered a minor league contract to some sub-replacement-level pitcher I had gotten in a trade. He sent me an email acting all outraged and going on about "how could I make him this offer after all we've been through together" or something. This guy had never played in the majors, so we had never "been through" anything. He demanded a major league contract even though he barely was good enough for AAA. As if any young player, especially with marginal skills, would ever act like that. Last edited by Qeltar; 05-16-2018 at 12:08 PM.

05-13-2018, 08:23 PM	#41
Reed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 2,499	Qeltar, I am impressed how quickly you have picked up the game. I have been playing since 2013 and you now know far more than I do about OOTP. Anyway, I use to play as manager but decided long ago it gave me to much of an advantage over the opponents AI manager. For the past 3-4 years I just play as GM. I have a 16 team league and I “watch” my team play each of the other teams in the league once during the season. This way I get to see the strength/weaknesses of my team as well as get a sense of the other players in the league. I frequently shake my head at some of the decisions my manager makes but then realize the manager for the opposing team will make similar questionable decisions. Some may think you post to much but I think it is fine. Your posts are thought provoking and challenging to some of our ingrained concepts.

05-16-2018, 11:36 PM	#55
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I find the morale chemistry and personality system well done and not too influential as it should be. It's certainly not in need of major surgery. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

05-23-2018, 11:15 PM	#57
gdoggcasey Bat Boy Join Date: May 2018 Posts: 13	Interesting thread here. I learned a lot about the game and hopefully picked up some tricks to help me improve. Specifically issues with building a good starting rotation. I thought I was doing something wrong but it seems like the main struggle for most people.