Why so unrealistic sometimes?

[Dyzalot]

This is one of the most unrealistic box scores for a WS Game #1 I've ever seen OOTP produce for a modern save. I don't understand how this happens.

[thehef]

What, specifically, is unrealistic about it? Looks like a run-of-the-mill blowout to me...

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by thehef

What, specifically, is unrealistic about it? Looks like a run-of-the-mill blowout to me...

Down 5-0 in the 2nd with the starter gone and ends in a 10-2 loss yet the pitcher's spot was never pinch hit for.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

Down 5-0 in the 2nd with the starter gone and ends in a 10-2 loss yet the pitcher's spot was never pinch hit for.

Do you have pinch hitters setup in your depth charts?

Edit: I mean lineups

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Do you have pinch hitters setup in your depth charts?

Edit: I mean lineups

Yes, not that it should matter. That should really only determine the order of use, not whether or not they are used.

[Syd Thrift]

Perhaps the game was “saving” your pinch hitters for a (theoretical) late and close situation? I play without the DH and see pitchers pinch hit for all the time TBH.

[Rain King]

The four hitters in front of the pitcher spot got on-base a combined 1 time. I imagine the AI is waiting for a higher leverage spot to bring in pinch hitters (can't really tell if the pitcher spot ever came up to lead off an inning or anything like that).

If this is one of the most unrealistic things you have ever seen then OOTP is doing pretty well!

[joefromchicago]

Well, let's break this down:

• Anderson starts, pitches one inning, gets shelled. His spot in the batting order doesn't come up before he is yanked. No chance for a pinch-hitter;
• Burzell pitches 2.1 innings, so he's lifted in the middle of the fourth inning. His spot in the order comes up once, which must have been in either the second or third inning. We know, however, that Betts, the number 2 hitter, hit a two-out solo homer in the third, which means that Burzell led off the inning. I wouldn't fault a manager for not pinch-hitting for his reliever in that spot. I don't want to deplete my bullpen and, like Rain King says, I want to save my pinch-hitters for high-leverage situations. Leading off the third inning isn't a high-leverage situation.
• Machado comes into the game in the fourth inning and pitches 1.1 innings, which means that he was lifted in the middle of the fifth for Christidis. My guess is that the side went down in order in the bottom of the fourth and that the pitcher's spot came up in the bottom of the fifth with two out and no runners on. Again, in that situation, do I use a pinch-hitter? Down 8-2 at that point, I again don't fault the manager for putting the reliever in the batter's box and hoping for a big inning in the sixth.
• Christidis comes in to pitch in the fifth and pitches 2.1 innings, so he goes through to the end of the seventh inning. His spot in the batting order doesn't come up again in the sixth, so that's it for him.
• Westrom pitches the final two innings. His spot comes up once, probably in the eighth. If there's one criticism I have for the AI manager, it's here. Granted, the bullpen might be depleted and the skipper might think this game is a lost cause, but why not roll the dice and put in a pinch-hitter? What do you have to lose at that point? The only reason to have Westrom hit is because there's no one left in the bullpen and this isn't the deciding game of the series.

TL;DR - at most, I think the Giants should have pinch-hit once for the pitcher. But is it wildly unrealistic that OOTP didn't use a pinch-hitter at all? I don't think so.

[Rain King]

I can see an argument for pinch-hitting to lead off an inning also as that does carry some importance. There is a lot of information we do not have here though, such as what this team's overall pitching situation is and what the status of the series is.

*Edit*

The summary tells us this is Game 1. So, the bullpen is likely not completely depleted (probably coming off of an Off Day), although we still can't be sure. I would have pinch-hit for the pitcher to lead off an inning, but I don't see any huge issues here...more of a manager preference type of situation and definitely not "most unrealistic thing ever".

We also don't know what the League setting for pinch-hitting for pitchers is as that plays a part in this also. The manager's slider is essentially an adjustment off of that setting.

[BIG17EASY]

The depth (or lack of) on the bench and the health status of those players may also have played a factor.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by joefromchicago

Well, let's break this down:

• Anderson starts, pitches one inning, gets shelled. His spot in the batting order doesn't come up before he is yanked. No chance for a pinch-hitter;
• Burzell pitches 2.1 innings, so he's lifted in the middle of the fourth inning. His spot in the order comes up once, which must have been in either the second or third inning. We know, however, that Betts, the number 2 hitter, hit a two-out solo homer in the third, which means that Burzell led off the inning. I wouldn't fault a manager for not pinch-hitting for his reliever in that spot. I don't want to deplete my bullpen and, like Rain King says, I want to save my pinch-hitters for high-leverage situations. Leading off the third inning isn't a high-leverage situation.
• Machado comes into the game in the fourth inning and pitches 1.1 innings, which means that he was lifted in the middle of the fifth for Christidis. My guess is that the side went down in order in the bottom of the fourth and that the pitcher's spot came up in the bottom of the fifth with two out and no runners on. Again, in that situation, do I use a pinch-hitter? Down 8-2 at that point, I again don't fault the manager for putting the reliever in the batter's box and hoping for a big inning in the sixth.
• Christidis comes in to pitch in the fifth and pitches 2.1 innings, so he goes through to the end of the seventh inning. His spot in the batting order doesn't come up again in the sixth, so that's it for him.
• Westrom pitches the final two innings. His spot comes up once, probably in the eighth. If there's one criticism I have for the AI manager, it's here. Granted, the bullpen might be depleted and the skipper might think this game is a lost cause, but why not roll the dice and put in a pinch-hitter? What do you have to lose at that point? The only reason to have Westrom hit is because there's no one left in the bullpen and this isn't the deciding game of the series.

TL;DR - at most, I think the Giants should have pinch-hit once for the pitcher. But is it wildly unrealistic that OOTP didn't use a pinch-hitter at all? I don't think so.

I agree with most that this isn't that egregious

The biggest problem that I see, and it's hard to tell because we dont have the full game log, is that it brought in Burzell, a long reliever? too soon.

The AI should have seen that the pitcher spot was going to be up and anticipated the need for a pinch hitter and saved the long reliever for a time when they could have pitched more innings without coming up

Leading off an inning with the top of the order coming up is a spot I'd pinch hit. The top of the order is where you score runs, you don't want to start them off with an automatic out. It's why I typically bat my pitcher 8th.

But, that required a specific set of circumstances to occur.

I would have been more aggressive early. But, as can be seen from the quoted post, human managers can disagree.


I've seen major league managers botch things at least this poorly

[joefromchicago]

Originally Posted by Rain King

The summary tells us this is Game 1. So, the bullpen is likely not completely depleted (probably coming off of an Off Day), although we still can't be sure. I would have pinch-hit for the pitcher to lead off an inning, but I don't see any huge issues here...more of a manager preference type of situation and definitely not "most unrealistic thing ever".

Agreed. We need to know more about the bullpen. Even if they're coming off an off-day, the relievers might still be exhausted. Also, I'd like to know more about the bench. With teams carrying 12 or 13 pitchers on a 25-man roster, that leaves only three or four potential pinch-hitters (not counting the backup catcher) available. In this game, there were three opportunities to pinch-hit for the pitcher. If a team only has three guys on the bench who can pinch-hit, that will also have an impact on the manager's decision. I wouldn't have a problem with a manager pinch-hitting for his reliever at the top of the third and trailing 5-1, but then I also wouldn't blame him for not pinch-hitting in that situation.

[Questdog]

The A.I. likes to stick with relievers in blowouts and let them hit, even if it is losing. There is no different code for how the A.I. treats a playoff game over a regular season game.

The only qualm I have with the A.I. about this particular situation is that what it terms a blowout seems to me to be not such a blowout. If it is down 3 runs in in the 3rd inning with a reliever already in the game and runners in scoring position, the A.I. will still let the reliever bat.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Questdog

The A.I. likes to stick with relievers in blowouts and let them hit, even if it is losing. There is no different code for how the A.I. treats a playoff game over a regular season game.

The only qualm I have with the A.I. about this particular situation is that what it terms a blowout seems to me to be not such a blowout. If it is down 3 runs in in the 3rd inning with a reliever already in the game and runners in scoring position, the A.I. will still let the reliever bat.

The AI should be better at this (or, maybe it is and we are wrong). The advantage computers have over humans is the ability to quickly do lots of calculations. It should check which move gives the best outcomes, and do that

I suppose the difficulty is in managing the game, vs a series, vs a season.

[Rain King]

Yeah, I am all for threads like this that have the tone of constructive criticism. I just wish the OP would make that case instead of posting it and titling it as "the most unrealistic".

[dkgo]

This is a whole lot closer to "potential minor AI issue" than "most unrealistic thing ever"

[Dyzalot]

You guys are so funny sometimes. It is the "most unrealistic" because if given a "blind test", this would be one of the easiest box scores I've ever seen produced by OOTP that I would know was not a real MLB box score. There are eight pitchers in the bullpen and seven pinch hitters available on the bench (one of the relievers plays both ways). The team is coming off of two days of not playing after wrapping up the NLCS in five games with a 1-0 shutout where the starter went 8+ innings. The AI needs to be "taught" that in the playoffs, losing a single game is more important than the regular season such that it should play for the win even in most blowouts. It also needs to be "taught" that when you get two days off per week, you don't need really need to "save" arms in your bullpen when getting blown out.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Yeah, I am all for threads like this that have the tone of constructive criticism. I just wish the OP would make that case instead of posting it and titling it as "the most unrealistic".

I didn't title it "most unrealistic".

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Dyzalot

I didn't title it "most unrealistic".

Those were the 6th & 7th words of your post.

[Dyzalot]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Those were the 6th & 7th words of your post.

True but those words are not in the title. You made it sound like I was trying to "click bait" everyone.