Development fixed?

[batsfan]

Originally Posted by jaguar8311

I'm experiencing the same things too. No natural progression of development, the top prospects just jump levels at a time. Example, by June 2022, you have SP's who were drafted in 2021 in the MLB. But they're not even SP's, they're being called up as relievers!

I was so ready to start a career save. I guess I'll have to wait longer



None of these players should be in the MLB right now. It's only June 1, 2022, and these are the players from last year's draft!

https://imgur.com/a/kzJNFbO

I am seeing the same thing, and this is even if I turn off coaching and set AI evaluation to stats only. Players still skip levels and get called up due to potential (sometimes the current ratings are good, sometimes they are not there yet, but it should be a non-factor with AI evaluation at 0% for ratings) without minors experience or stats to back them.

[ezpkns34]

Originally Posted by jaguar8311

I'm experiencing the same things too. No natural progression of development, the top prospects just jump levels at a time. Example, by June 2022, you have SP's who were drafted in 2021 in the MLB. But they're not even SP's, they're being called up as relievers!

I was so ready to start a career save. I guess I'll have to wait longer



None of these players should be in the MLB right now. It's only June 1, 2022, and these are the players from last year's draft!

https://imgur.com/a/kzJNFbO

That part isn't rare in real life, for what it's worth

[jaguar8311]

Originally Posted by ezpkns34

That part isn't rare in real life, for what it's worth

Sure, but not for top prospects drafted in the 1st round from the year before.

[Dave Stieb II]

Well, actually, yes.
In fact Garrett Crochet of the White Sox was drafted in 2020 and pitched for them out of the BP last year already. I think there was one other 2020 draft pick who did the same but memory fails at the moment.
I'm not suggesting the devs don't need to ratchet the progression down some yet. Early promotions still appear to occur too often with too many players.
I guess the big question I have is how many pitchers are being promoted to pitch out of the BP the year after their draft year? If it's just a few, it might not be so far removed from the reality of today's game IRL.

[batsfan]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

Well, actually, yes.
In fact Garrett Crochet of the White Sox was drafted in 2020 and pitched for them out of the BP last year already. I think there was one other 2020 draft pick who did the same but memory fails at the moment.
I'm not suggesting the devs don't need to ratchet the progression down some yet. Early promotions still appear to occur too often with too many players.
I guess the big question I have is how many pitchers are being promoted to pitch out of the BP the year after their draft year? If it's just a few, it might not be so far removed from the reality of today's game IRL.

Crochet is an exception (as was the 2020 season in every way) - the first draft pick to skip the minors in 10 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eague_Baseball

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by batsfan

Crochet is an exception (as was the 2020 season in every way) - the first draft pick to skip the minors in 10 years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eague_Baseball

OK. Fair enough.
I do agree that the development and advancement still needs to be ratcheted down some. No argument here.
But just to play devil's advocate, according to the linked article as far back as 2016 four 2015 draft picks were promoted to the majors. (two pitchers, Bregman, Benitendi) And it wouldn't shock me to see some pitchers from the 2020 draft work out of major league BP's in 2021 if teams don't delay them for contractual reasons.
So I'm curious as to how many pitchers you are seeing being promoted to the majors the year after their draft class.

[Dave Stieb II]

Sorry, forgot to include the link:


https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/...t-all-30-teams

[batsfan]

Originally Posted by Dave Stieb II

OK. Fair enough.
I do agree that the development and advancement still needs to be ratcheted down some. No argument here.
But just to play devil's advocate, according to the linked article as far back as 2016 four 2015 draft picks were promoted to the majors. (two pitchers, Bregman, Benitendi) And it wouldn't shock me to see some pitchers from the 2020 draft work out of major league BP's in 2021 if teams don't delay them for contractual reasons.
So I'm curious as to how many pitchers you are seeing being promoted to the majors the year after their draft class.

True, but both those hitters were called up in the second half of the season, and had great stats over two seasons of real playing time at 4 minor league levels. They progressed the way they players are expected to, if a bit fast tracked. Same for the two pitchers, though one could argue Fulmer's 2016 stats did not warrant a callup. Also, since that point, no one has been called up the year after a draft except for 1 September call up per year.


In my ootp sim, now on 2065, I see 9 pitchers and two position players had MLB playing time from the 2064 draft. Most have neither ratings nor stats to back this up. Often, I am seeing them debut early in the year (May-ish). Often, they had extremely limited or no playing time in 2064 in the minors due to the new signing deadline coinciding with the end of the minor league season - this is accurate but a significant difference from the real life past draft.



So basically, in the game, I am seeing players get called up with 1-2 months minor league experience, often skipping multiple levels in the process.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by batsfan

So basically, in the game, I am seeing players get called up with 1-2 months minor league experience, often skipping multiple levels in the process.

This was mentioned by a couple of our beta testers as well, and I think they're making sense.

Based on what I'm seeing, I'm kind of thinking any issue now is not so much with development, but with the AI being too willing and even eager to promote players who it does not yet 'have' to protect on the 40-man roster.
Real-life MLB teams are reluctant to burn options or 40-man spots before they actually 'have' to, and a guy becomes rule 5 eligible, unless a guy is just so good he forces his way onto the MLB roster early.

Whereas the AI seems to take that pretty lightly now for players who aren't likely to make enough of an impact to make the early promotion make sense.

If the AI would just leave those guys in AAA or AA a bit longer until it has to use a roster spot on them, I think even with the current development things would be close to perfect. That would get guys up to the higher levels of the minors quicker, which was a real problem in past years, but they wouldn't get to MLB 'too' quick.

So not promising when we will make any adjustments here, it will depend on when we might have a chance to look more deeply (things are super busy right now), but this is on our list of stuff to keep an eye on and work more on when possible.

[clamel]

Yes, as expected. This have to stand aside when OOTP Go, Perfect Team, Korean stuff comes first in the new owner prio.

Sad since this AI messing with 40-man rosters and development is MAJOR issue in my book.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by clamel

Yes, as expected. This have to stand aside when OOTP Go, Perfect Team, Korean stuff comes first in the new owner prio.

Sad since this AI messing with 40-man rosters and development is MAJOR issue in my book.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but in reality that comment is inaccurate, the main game still comes first.

We've already put a great deal of time and effort into tweaking development in each of the last two patches, and we'll continue to work on in more on it in the future.

However changes like this are quite complex and require a good deal of effort and testing to get right.

[jaguar8311]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but in reality that comment is inaccurate, the main game still comes first.

We've already put a great deal of time and effort into tweaking development in each of the last two patches, and we'll continue to work on in more on it in the future.

However changes like this are quite complex and require a good deal of effort and testing to get right.

To say it more diplomatically Lukas, I would say that is a game-breaking issue for many of us. Of course, game-breaking can be defined differently by who you speak to, but for me it's something that prevents me from playing my career save. You defined the issue more eloquently than any of us did, and you hit the nail on the head that the game is "being too willing and even eager to promote players who it does not yet 'have' to protect on the 40-man roster".

My personal opinion is that this is a priority issue, because it impacts all saves (fictional, historical, modern-day MLB), and it destroys the competitiveness of AI teams when they're burning service years and their 40 man rosters by calling up 2 star current ability top prospects, potentially harming their development by calling them up too early.

Just my $0.02 though. Needless to say, I am quite disappointed that a solution to this is not being explored immediately with priority for the next patch whenever that lands.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by jaguar8311

Just my $0.02 though. Needless to say, I am quite disappointed that a solution to this is not being explored immediately with priority for the next patch whenever that lands.

I think you guys are all reading way too much into what I said. Probably my fault for not wording things better, my apologies for that

I didn't say this wasn't a priority or there won't be any changes in the next patch.

In fact, I would guess there probably will be something on this in the next patch, but I do not want to promise a specific timeframe before talking it over more with the dev team and testing a bit more, especially since we are very busy at the moment.

So I simply posted to reassure folks we are following this and it's on our to do list, but to also manage expectations that we are not going to necessarily have another patch with more adjustments to this tomorrow.

EDIT: I do also think the changes we made the last couple patches have this to a level where it's much better than it was, and should be quite playable as is for most folks in most leagues, even if there's still clearly room for improvement. Of course, your opinion on that may vary, as it does, and you're perfectly free to disagree with me

[Vegas Vic]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

Based on what I'm seeing, I'm kind of thinking any issue now is not so much with development, but with the AI being too willing and even eager to promote players who it does not yet 'have' to protect on the 40-man roster.

Real-life MLB teams are reluctant to burn options or 40-man spots before they actually 'have' to, and a guy becomes rule 5 eligible, unless a guy is just so good he forces his way onto the MLB roster early.

Whereas the AI seems to take that pretty lightly now for players who aren't likely to make enough of an impact to make the early promotion make sense.

If the AI would just leave those guys in AAA or AA a bit longer until it has to use a roster spot on them, I think even with the current development things would be close to perfect. That would get guys up to the higher levels of the minors quicker, which was a real problem in past years, but they wouldn't get to MLB 'too' quick.

I think I can now appreciate the complexity of this issue from a programming standpoint. Here’s an example of when the pendulum swung too far in the other direction.

I acquired this guy in OOTP21 via the Rule 5 Draft, when the Cardinals left him unprotected. He started 156 games for me his rookie year and put up 7.2 WAR.

For a brief history, the Cardinals signed him as a scouting discovery at age 16. He spent two years in the complex and was promoted to their DSL Rookie affiliate at age 18. He spent one year there, and spent the next three years at low A and high A, where at age 22 he was the #2 overall prospect with a 2.5* current and 5* potential overall rating, Contact 65(80), Power 45(60), Eye 40(60). So, not only should he have not been left unprotected by the Cardinals, he also should have been on their AA or AAA affiliate.

Not being a programmer myself, I can only imagine how difficult it is to get this to be realistic and strike the correct balance. I appreciate the time and thought the OOTP team is putting into this issue.

[itsmb8]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

This was mentioned by a couple of our beta testers as well, and I think they're making sense.

Based on what I'm seeing, I'm kind of thinking any issue now is not so much with development, but with the AI being too willing and even eager to promote players who it does not yet 'have' to protect on the 40-man roster.
Real-life MLB teams are reluctant to burn options or 40-man spots before they actually 'have' to, and a guy becomes rule 5 eligible, unless a guy is just so good he forces his way onto the MLB roster early.

Whereas the AI seems to take that pretty lightly now for players who aren't likely to make enough of an impact to make the early promotion make sense.

If the AI would just leave those guys in AAA or AA a bit longer until it has to use a roster spot on them, I think even with the current development things would be close to perfect. That would get guys up to the higher levels of the minors quicker, which was a real problem in past years, but they wouldn't get to MLB 'too' quick.

So not promising when we will make any adjustments here, it will depend on when we might have a chance to look more deeply (things are super busy right now), but this is on our list of stuff to keep an eye on and work more on when possible.

I think that is probably the best course of action, and also ties into service time manipulation.

Like you said, essentially players should be placed in a level respective to their current ability straight out of the draft, and progress up as they develop. However, players should not be called up to the minors until necessary, in order to keep them away from free agency and the Rule 5 Draft as long as possible and keep them with options.

A real life example is Aaron Ashby and Clayton Andrews with Milwaukee. Both are probably good enough for a spot in Milwaukee's bullpen (Ashby had a tremendous spring), but they are 23 and 24 years old and not even on the 40-man yet, because they both have only 2 years as a pro and not rule 5 eligible (and wouldnt provide that much of a boost to the pro club).

Solidify the coding for the AI logic in that department and I think we're golden.

[NoOne]

this happens every year.. something is a bit off, ppl claim it ruins the game, then they have some ice cream? take a hard poop to get that bug out? And, ootp patches things as they go. All is fine in the world, again.

All years aren't as bumpy, but this is the reality of how this game and many others like it, are produced. This isn't EA Sports, and it is still a professionally made simulation, regardless. A niche no one else is filling as well, that is for sure.

If you find yourself saying things like this has ruined my experience or i can't play this... stop buying the game in the early part of the process. LoL, anyone responsible OotP sales and marketing just **** their pants about that last statement. But, either roll with it, or if small bumps cause catastrophe for your creations, wait... play last year's for a while longer. Pick up the game when you see the fog clear in forums about issues. This is a year it may go into june for that personality type. After 1 year it'll be the same amount of time on each version, again... just slightly shifted.

and anyone working for ootp, better put on that thick skin, cause the end of the world is coming and it is your fault in some eyes! lol. if every year it took until july to hammer things out, maybe parts of a comment above are right, but they seem to balance responsibility of each game's development very well.

[Mancandy]

Originally Posted by NoOne

this happens every year.. something is a bit off, ppl claim it ruins the game, then they have some ice cream? take a hard poop to get that bug out? And, ootp patches things as they go. All is fine in the world, again.

All years aren't as bumpy, but this is the reality of how this game and many others like it, are produced. This isn't EA Sports, and it is still a professionally made simulation, regardless. A niche no one else is filling as well, that is for sure.

If you find yourself saying things like this has ruined my experience or i can't play this... stop buying the game in the early part of the process. LoL, anyone responsible OotP sales and marketing just **** their pants about that last statement. But, either roll with it, or if small bumps cause catastrophe for your creations, wait... play last year's for a while longer. Pick up the game when you see the fog clear in forums about issues. This is a year it may go into june for that personality type. After 1 year it'll be the same amount of time on each version, again... just slightly shifted.

and anyone working for ootp, better put on that thick skin, cause the end of the world is coming and it is your fault in some eyes! lol. if every year it took until july to hammer things out, maybe parts of a comment above are right, but they seem to balance responsibility of each game's development very well.

Always funny to me when people are this eager to defend a company against any and all possible forms of anything that could resemble criticism. If Markus and Lukas can keep their big boy pants on, without even soiling them to boot, when people don’t unconditionally love the game as is from the first beta...I’m pretty sure you ought to be able to survive it. Like, I could see if this were the FHM boards and whatshisface(can’t be bothered to look up his name, I think it starts with an A? Not the main developer, the other guy. You know who I’m talking about if you’ve ever been on those boards) was blowing out his diaper again because somebody didn’t give their game 3 thumbs up and 6/5 stars, but the OOTP boards have grown adult moderators and everything, they’re good, trust me.

But if reading this horrible, no good, very mean, awful, rude comments about how *GASP* certain aspects things could be better bothers you that much...don’t read the posts. Play the perfect-for-you-as-is game and come back when things that the developers freely and happily acknowledge can and will be adjusted get adjusted.

[markprior22]

I started a new league post patch. Did std league, got rid of all the real players and replaced with fictional. Simmed a few years and jumped in. First thing that caught my eye was a backup catcher on my roster who was hitting around .340 (in June). On closer inspection, I see he is 15 yrs old. I looked throughout the league and there were many (guessing 30-40) players on MLB rosters that were 15-17. I set the league with a 19 yo minimum and, after simming a day, it appears these players were reallocated. I've never had to set limits at MLB level to get a reasonable set of players agewise. This version is the most disappointing to me since OOTP 6. I've started 5-6 leagues, had trouble getting stats to stay in line and now this age issue. I'm glad the 3D and OOTP GO are coming along but it really sucks when the main game won't function like it should (and has in the past for the most part)

[Dave Stieb II]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

This was mentioned by a couple of our beta testers as well, and I think they're making sense.

Based on what I'm seeing, I'm kind of thinking any issue now is not so much with development, but with the AI being too willing and even eager to promote players who it does not yet 'have' to protect on the 40-man roster.
Real-life MLB teams are reluctant to burn options or 40-man spots before they actually 'have' to, and a guy becomes rule 5 eligible, unless a guy is just so good he forces his way onto the MLB roster early.

Whereas the AI seems to take that pretty lightly now for players who aren't likely to make enough of an impact to make the early promotion make sense.

If the AI would just leave those guys in AAA or AA a bit longer until it has to use a roster spot on them, I think even with the current development things would be close to perfect. That would get guys up to the higher levels of the minors quicker, which was a real problem in past years, but they wouldn't get to MLB 'too' quick.

So not promising when we will make any adjustments here, it will depend on when we might have a chance to look more deeply (things are super busy right now), but this is on our list of stuff to keep an eye on and work more on when possible.

This makes perfect sense as the root cause of the problem even to someone with absolutely no idea about programming.
I won't throw a tantrum (carrot vs. stick) - especially because I know what the development team was attempting to achieve vs. prior versions (good intentions) - but I do want to add my 0.02 worth and go on record as saying this really is an extremely important core issue that strikes to the heart of the game and its realism.
Also, one question now that the nature of the problem appears to have been narrowed.
I just started my first 'keeper' save with the release of the last update. I will gladly put that one on hold and start another for the time being, until the problem can be addressed (hopefully) in a future release.
My question is this: If and when the problem is addressed, will the programming changes in the future version work effectively with a game that is already started or will I have to start a new one for the changes to have an impact?

[klkitchens]

Perhaps the OP could change this thread to "Player Development Fixed"

Everytime it shows up, it gives me pause that there is a new issue with the software development.