OPS or OBP

[RoteLaterne]

Is OPS or OBP more important to you?
Always paid more attention to OPS.

The "Avoid K" rating doesn't factor into OPS.
Does it into OBP?
I see players perform fine, with high Avoid K rating and I was missing on them so far.

I am setting up my teams paying attention to OPS and defensive rating.

Now I am considering changing that to OBP and defensive rating.

I know that OBP is more valuable per point than slugging.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by RoteLaterne

Is OPS or OBP more important to you?
Always paid more attention to OPS.

The "Avoid K" rating doesn't factor into OPS.
Does it into OBP?
I see players perform fine, with high Avoid K rating and I was missing on them so far.

I am setting up my teams paying attention to OPS and defensive rating.

Now I am considering changing that to OBP and defensive rating.

I know that OBP is more valuable per point than slugging.

It totally depends on what you are trying to do. No one here can read your mind.

OBP is, kinda, the inverse of percentage of time making an out
OPS is a weird conglomeration of OBP and SLG that is mathematically meaningless but correlates pretty well with total hitting production.


The first thing you should do is study up a bit on what the different stats mean. Wikipedia is a fine place. So is the glossary at FanGraphs.


If you look at OBP, a player who had 200 walks in 500 plate appearances (.400 OBP) was equal to a player who had 200 home runs in 500 plate appearances (.400 OBP).

If you look at OPS, the 200 walk player would have a .400 OPS and the 200 home run player would have a 1.600 OPS

Which of those seems to better serve your purpose?



I said no one could read your mind, but I'll try to guess it.

What I think you want is a measure of a player's offense.

if so, wOBA/wRC+ are your best bets
What I wrote in another thread that you might find useful

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

For hitters,
I look at OBP/ISO/wRC+

wRC+ tells me how good the hitter was compared to their league. Better than 100 is good.
OBP and ISO tell me how that player produced that. By avoiding getting out, or by hitting for power. Preferably both.

[Fronzizzle]

OPS is sort of a junk stat in a way it's adding two numbers that aren't calculated the same. Plus, as you said, OBP is more important but OPS gives the same weight to SLG and OBP.

If you have a player that has a .500 OBP and .300 SLG, his OPS is .800. Likewise, you could have a player with a .300 OBP and .500 SLG and his OPS is also .800. The first player is much more valuable.

If talking just about offense, there are all kinds of advanced stats available in OOTP - wOBA, wRC+, etc. It's hard to pick a "best", ideally you'd look at a bunch of numbers to make the determination. Defense matters, too, as does the composition of your team - sometimes it's okay to have a lower OBP slugger that has a lot of power to round out your lineup, for example.

My personal experience is that if the "Avoid K's" thing gets too low, the player just doesn't make enough contact to be useful. In and of themselves, strikeouts aren't that bad but if the player is striking out 30% of the time, it makes it hard put up numbers. In MLB, the lowest number I have in Avoid K's is 40, that player strikes out 28.5% of the time but is still a 3-WAR player (at C). Guys in the minors have 35 in Avoid K's and they are basically replacement level. Of course, a lot more goes into that than just avoiding K's, just speaking in generalities.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Wrc+ is my Bible

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Wrc+ is my Bible

Well, except wRC+ accurately describes what happened in the past

Which, snark aside, is important. Because wRC+ does not tell you "how good" a hitter someone is. It only tells you the value of the results of their performance over a time frame.

There's some discussion in the link above about that

[RoteLaterne]

Eddie Mathews (left) vs CJ Abrams (right)

Methews (left) has a much higher OPS (1,073 vs 906).

Why is Abrams (right) having a better woBA vL then? (.328 vs .330)

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by RoteLaterne

Eddie Mathews (left) vs CJ Abrams (right)

Methews (left) has a much higher OPS (1,073 vs 906).

Why is Abrams (right) having a better woBA vL then? (.328 vs .330)

I don't know what you are talking about

You're talking about statistics and showing ratings.

Then you talk about OPS and wOBA vs L

[RoteLaterne]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

I don't know what you are talking about

You're talking about statistics and showing ratings.

Then you talk about OPS and wOBA vs L

Those stats were calculated in a spreadsheet using those ratings/splits.

[CBeisbol]

You're going to have to spell out your question more directly.
I don't know what your issue is.


My best guess is that you're asking why Methews has a higher overall OPS while Abrams has a higher wOBA vs left-handed pitchers?

Two possibilities
1) Because Methews is the better hitter overall, but Abrams is better vs left-handed pitchers
2) You are miscalculating something


What overall OPS did you get for both players
What overall wOBA did you get for both players
What OPS did you get for each batter's splits?
What wOBA did you get for each batter's splits?

[RoteLaterne]

Originally Posted by CBeisbol

You're going to have to spell out your question more directly.
I don't know what your issue is.


My best guess is that you're asking why Methews has a higher overall OPS while Abrams has a higher wOBA vs left-handed pitchers?

Two possibilities
1) Because Methews is the better hitter overall, but Abrams is better vs left-handed pitchers
2) You are miscalculating something

What overall OPS did you get for both players
What overall wOBA did you get for both players
What OPS did you get for each batter's splits?
What wOBA did you get for each batter's splits?

Sry for the misunderstanding. My fault.

Eddie Mathews vs CJ Abrams

What overall OPS did you get for both players?
1,073 vs 906

What overall wOBA did you get for both players?
.32956 vs. .32763

What OPS did you get for each batter's splits?
vL .965 vs. .879
vR .1,115 vs. .918

What wOBA did you get for each batter's splits?
vL .29922 vs. .31818
vR . 33981 vs. .33444

[CBeisbol]

I think what you are seeing here is the problem with OPS


What OBP and SLG did you calcluate for each player in each split?
And what ISO?


OPS over rates power hitters.
It's easy to see this
The highest OBP a player can have is 1.000
The highest SLG a player can have is 4.000

Last year the average OBP was .323
Last year the average SLG was .435

SLG is usually a bigger number than OBP. But OBP is more important (almost twice) as SLG.

So, players with high SLG have higher OPS, but players with higher OBPs are better hitters.

wOBA is, correctly, telling you that the two hitters are about equal.
OPS is, incorrectly, telling you that Mathews is better.

[RoteLaterne]

Thank you for your explanation!
Really appreciate your help.


wOBA

[BBGiovanni]

OPS just frustrates me, as I'm more interested in the two stats separately (one showing how often a guy gets on base, vs. how much punch a hitter has overall). I generally use OBP to decide who to bat where, with a low OBP/high SLG guy going further down in the order (generally), theoretically getting the OBP guys around the bases with their power.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by BBGiovanni

OPS just frustrates me, as I'm more interested in the two stats separately (one showing how often a guy gets on base, vs. how much punch a hitter has overall). I generally use OBP to decide who to bat where, with a low OBP/high SLG guy going further down in the order (generally), theoretically getting the OBP guys around the bases with their power.

After re-reading your post, I see it doesn't apply to your situation, but I'll post it any way

Ketel Marte and Pete Alonso
Who's the slugger?
Marte 77 extra base hits - 36 doubles, 32 homers
Alonso 85 extra base hits- 30 doubles, 52 homers

Marte .592 SLG
Alonso .583 SLG

ISO tells you about power
Marte .264 ISO
Alonso .323 ISO


Slugging is inflated by things likes walks and singles.

[thklein]

If I were going to be stuck on a desert island and could only take one stat with me, and my choices were .obp or .ops, I would take .ops hands down. In a vacuum, it gives a more complete picture. That's probably not a likely scenario though.

If I had to choose one of those stats to be blown out of existence. I would choose .ops. .ops doesn't tell me anything that other stats, like WRC+, doesn't tell me better. .obp does tell me something no other stat can tell me. Namely, what percentage of time the batter is not out. That is significant, and actually a primary factor I look at when choosing a lead-off hitter.

[ThePride87]

wRC+ is king for me, basically park-adjusted wOBA. It's ironic that OPS is a better marker of success than OBP...which is true....given how broken and useless the execution of OPS is (let's just throw two random stats together that don't present results the same way....brilliant). WOBA/WRC+ all the way, it's weighted correctly, and one is very useful for players who play in extreme parks.

OBP is a great stat that solely focuses on the single most important facet of hitting....not making an out. But power matters greatly, and OBP does nothing for you there. A team full of elite OBP guys isn't necessarily as good as a team of above avg OBP guys who hit HR's.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Yeah WRC+ and wOBA are my most used benchmarks for hitters. Those categories are like my star ratings. I do always check bapip just to see if its crazy one sided. Like 220 or 380.

I also check the % out. BB%, SO%. They can show you who is developing at each level. If your scout has someone rated high for eye but they are only walking like 5% of the time then no matter what the scout/ratings show its no developed yet for the level they are in.

[One Great Matrix]

Originally Posted by RoteLaterne

Is OPS or OBP more important to you?
Always paid more attention to OPS.

The "Avoid K" rating doesn't factor into OPS.
Does it into OBP?
I see players perform fine, with high Avoid K rating and I was missing on them so far.

I am setting up my teams paying attention to OPS and defensive rating.

Now I am considering changing that to OBP and defensive rating.

I know that OBP is more valuable per point than slugging.

Avoid K is a less significant rating than the other basic ratings displayed but I did face one team that did pretty well specializing in high Avoid Ks & contact alone...they did well against true Aces.

I like wOBA, I always messed around with the idea of a stat to just measure how well a player is hitting & wOBA comes closer than OBP & is better mathematically than OPS (which is pretty terrible mathematically)...but that RC27 statistic...that seems to be a very impressive gauge for how a hitter is really performing as well...

That's all.

[danielrya]

To me, OPS is more significant. It succeeds as an integrated method of identifying, measuring, and evaluating on-field player performance. And OPS is a very useful measure because it just adds the outcome based on the player's slide.

[Syd Thrift]

IIRC the big issue with OPS is that it winds up overrating slugging by a bit. If you wanted to be a complete stat nerd you'd do something like (OBP * 1.2) + SLG to get a better idea of value. Or, you know, just use a different metric like wOBA; I don't necessarily find OPS any easier to read than that. Or WAR, which on the one hand includes defense and baserunning but on the other hand defense is suuuuuuuuuper important in OOTP, arguably more important than it is IRL, so you really, really, really should be factoring in defense for most positions.

I personally like to try and play in a lower-stat environment because I prefer the challenge / experience of that (I also tend to play fictional/historical leagues) so I personally tend to use OBP and SLG individually as well as - yes, I know, but again, this is a style choice, not a "I think this is objectively better for grading" decision - batting average to determine player value. Like, I will almost always try to put the best BA in the 3 hole unless that player has absolutely no power (also, BA by itself tends to be a lot more variant than OBP/SLG since it's based on one number and not several, so there's that added level of "do I really trust that this career .240 hitter is really and truly a .300 hitter this year?"), and I usually rank my pinch-hitters in approximate order of BA.

To the original post, which was a loooong time ago... "Avoid Ks" is not "included" in OBP, exactly, because it's already baked into "Contact". "Contact" is actually not a rating in and of itself, it's an aggregate of Avoid Ks and a hidden rating called BABIP which is in turn correlated with but not directly related to Speed. There's an interesting bit of meta in PT involving people seeking out high-BABIP guys at the Diamond level because that's often one of the few ratings where there might be huge variances between two otherwise-superstars.