Upgrading from FHM3 - two questions

[gord]

1) Is there not a way to change a player's role once you've advanced to the game-selection screen like you could in v3?


2) Is there a guide to what combination of roles on each line work best together, or does it matter? That seemed to exist in v3 and in reality it makes sense that three playmakers or two rushing defensemen wouldn't work well together.


Thanks!

[jumpSeat]

Originally Posted by gord

1) Is there not a way to change a player's role once you've advanced to the game-selection screen like you could in v3?


2) Is there a guide to what combination of roles on each line work best together, or does it matter? That seemed to exist in v3 and in reality it makes sense that three playmakers or two rushing defensemen wouldn't work well together.


Thanks!

1) Not in the game selection screen, but if you're playing in the 2D simulator, you can change player roles via the tactics menu.

2) I'd recommend the following:

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=307213

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=321016

[tomkmb]

Originally Posted by jumpSeat

1) Not in the game selection screen, but if you're playing in the 2D simulator, you can change player roles via the tactics menu.

2) I'd recommend the following:

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=307213

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=321016

Thanks so much for sharing those links, that second thread in particular is amazing. So is the first but i'd seen some of that stuff as it looks like they implemented some of those explanations into the game itself.

This community is amazing!

[gord]

Originally Posted by jumpSeat

1) Not in the game selection screen, but if you're playing in the 2D simulator, you can change player roles via the tactics menu.

2) I'd recommend the following:

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=307213

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=321016

Thanks for this. Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything specifically regarding balancing roles on a line, but I'm thinking that's not an issue anymore.

I do have another question. On FHM3, I used "Firewagon" as my offensive tactic and had great success with it. Now, things are more complex and I'm not sure how to replicate that.

I'm doing a historical game starting in 1995 with Vancouver and this style fits them perfectly. Now in my second season, I'm first in the league in Getting Open, Passing, Puck Handling and Offensive Read, but down a ways in Checking and other physical categories, so I would assume an open, attacking system would be best.

In season 1, I spent considerable time tweaking the tactical settings to levels fit the team best - if it said it was good for wingers with good checking skills, I looked for something else (I have Bure, Mogilny, Naslund and R. Courtnall as my top wingers). But as soon as I switched to that from what the assistant picked, I completely tanked and I'm still having trouble scoring consistently despite the skill players at my disposal.

Tactical settings I picked:

Attacking: +1
Aggressiveness: -1
Backchecking: -1
Pressure: -2

Hitting: -2
Tempo: +1
Passing: +2
Shooting: -1

Breakout: Forwards High
NZ Offense: Wide Drive
OZ Attacking: Cycle
Forecheck: 1-1-3
NZ Coverage: 1-1-3
DZ Coverage: Half-Ice Overload

PP Breakout: Cut
PP OZ Attacking: 1-3-1
PP Defense: Pursue Aggressively
SH Forecheck: Passive 1-3
SH DZ Coverage: Wedge
SH Attack: Puck Possession

So my question is: what should I be doing to utilize this style? I want to be able to attack with my speed and skill, knowing that I might lose a few games 6-5 along the way.

[bandwagonfan]

Its completely random, dont sweat. I have spent lots of hours experimenting with tactics in custom generated games for faster simming. They should have spent more time improving tactics part of the game than useless stuff like making a player pass/shoot in 2d. I mean, look at AI teams tactics that are doing good and look at their lineup. Sometimes it makes absolutely no sense and seems completely randomly generated.

[Adam B]

Originally Posted by gord

Thanks for this. Unless I missed it, I didn't see anything specifically regarding balancing roles on a line, but I'm thinking that's not an issue anymore.

I do have another question. On FHM3, I used "Firewagon" as my offensive tactic and had great success with it. Now, things are more complex and I'm not sure how to replicate that.

I'm doing a historical game starting in 1995 with Vancouver and this style fits them perfectly. Now in my second season, I'm first in the league in Getting Open, Passing, Puck Handling and Offensive Read, but down a ways in Checking and other physical categories, so I would assume an open, attacking system would be best.

In season 1, I spent considerable time tweaking the tactical settings to levels fit the team best - if it said it was good for wingers with good checking skills, I looked for something else (I have Bure, Mogilny, Naslund and R. Courtnall as my top wingers). But as soon as I switched to that from what the assistant picked, I completely tanked and I'm still having trouble scoring consistently despite the skill players at my disposal.

Tactical settings I picked:
So my question is: what should I be doing to utilize this style? I want to be able to attack with my speed and skill, knowing that I might lose a few games 6-5 along the way.

+ Attacking and less Aggressiveness doesn't make a lot of sense for where you're going. Typically those should be minor tweaks anyway and letting your players play to their tactic will be helpful. However with the information you've provided it's tough to know exactly why you may be not getting your desired results. What's the GR telling you? Or even the advanced stats?

How are you losing games? Are you falling apart in the 3rd? Weak defensively? Giving up too much special teams? etc. Those are key things to know when looking at tactics.

[jumpSeat]

Originally Posted by bandwagonfan

They should have spent more time improving tactics part of the game than useless stuff like making a player pass/shoot in 2d.

I'm not saying tactics aren't important, but one man's 'useless' is another man's necessity. I mean if the pass/shoot thing doesn't function reasonably well in 2D then trying to watch it is akin to getting a root canal.

(Nothing worse than watching the same two guys pass the puck back and forth to each other ten times in-a-row). Seriously, if that's gonna be the case, just shoot me please.

[gord]

Originally Posted by Adam B

+ Attacking and less Aggressiveness doesn't make a lot of sense for where you're going. Typically those should be minor tweaks anyway and letting your players play to their tactic will be helpful. However with the information you've provided it's tough to know exactly why you may be not getting your desired results. What's the GR telling you? Or even the advanced stats?

How are you losing games? Are you falling apart in the 3rd? Weak defensively? Giving up too much special teams? etc. Those are key things to know when looking at tactics.

From what I was reading, Aggressiveness has to do with physicality and going for more hits, but I have hits set at -2 because I'm not a good checking team - I was going for a more finesse approach, which makes sense considering the makeup of my team.

I ended up letting the AI set my tactics, since what I did wasn't working. It didn't end up changing much and I'm now at this:

Attacking: +1
Aggressiveness: -1
Backchecking: -1
Pressure: -1

Hitting: -2
Tempo: +1
Passing: +1
Shooting: -0

Plus AI changed several Tactical Settings, plus unit settings. (BTW, why does letting the AI pick result in different settings every time? I would have thought I was asking one *person* for their opinion).

Anyway, letting the AI pick worked because I ended up winning the Cup the next season and led the NHL in goals. Was I just underachieving? Maybe, but I saw a noticeable drop in form once I changed things and it got better when I changed it back. Since I don't really know what I'm doing, I assumed it was me.

So I guess my question still stands: if I want to play wide-open hockey with a lot of speedy, skilled, offensively-minded players, what settings do I need to use?

[jumpSeat]

Originally Posted by gord

So I guess my question still stands: if I want to play wide-open hockey with a lot of speedy, skilled, offensively-minded players, what settings do I need to use?

For me, and this is just my personal preference, if I'm down a goal or two in the third (or just want to play run-and-gun), I set my global tactics to:

Attacking: +1 (So my players are thinking offense first).
Aggressiveness: 0 (Don't want to take extra penalties).
Backchecking: -1 (To stay in position for loose pucks up ice).
Pressure: +1 (To try to create turnovers).

Hitting: 0 (Mostly a defensive option - don't think it creates loose pucks).
Tempo: +1 (Move the puck up ice quickly - make riskier passes).
Passing: 0 ( Don't want to waste scoring chances by over-passing).
Shooting: +1 (If down a goal - everything at the net).

[Colorado]

Originally Posted by bandwagonfan

Its completely random, dont sweat. I have spent lots of hours experimenting with tactics in custom generated games for faster simming. They should have spent more time improving tactics part of the game than useless stuff like making a player pass/shoot in 2d. I mean, look at AI teams tactics that are doing good and look at their lineup. Sometimes it makes absolutely no sense and seems completely randomly generated.

Whilst I don't think it's just simply randomly created, I do think the whole tactical implementation in the game is just one huge grey area and is essentially guesswork. Even in the Let's Play videos they release themselves, tactics are just skipped over with little explanation or insight. It's all very vague.

I'ts frustrating that this continues to be the case year upon year, and unnecessary features like telling Connor McDavid when he should pass or shoot get added.

[crusadertsar]

Originally Posted by Colorado

Whilst I don't think it's just simply randomly created, I do think the whole tactical implementation in the game is just one huge grey area and is essentially guesswork. Even in the Let's Play videos they release themselves, tactics are just skipped over with little explanation or insight. It's all very vague.

It's frustrating that this continues to be the case year upon year, and unnecessary features like telling Connor McDavid when he should pass or shoot get added.

Can't agree more. Unfortunately it's still a farshot from what Football Manager is doing with its tactics where you feel like you have a lot of control. I wish they went with more visual representation of each tactical option rather than what it is right now. I am tired of constantly checking the tactical option description and then going back checking if my players on that line have the attributes needed.
Would have been nice if you could fill up your line and then click a button to have AI assess it and give you a best recommendation for what instruction of style this group of guys would be best at like "along the boards" or "balanced" or "triangle", ect.
Right now it does feel too much like guesswork and honestly can't tell if whatever I am doing is doing anything better than what AI would do with its seemingly random choices for instructions, lines and roles

[tomkmb]

Originally Posted by Colorado

Whilst I don't think it's just simply randomly created, I do think the whole tactical implementation in the game is just one huge grey area and is essentially guesswork. Even in the Let's Play videos they release themselves, tactics are just skipped over with little explanation or insight. It's all very vague.

I'ts frustrating that this continues to be the case year upon year, and unnecessary features like telling Connor McDavid when he should pass or shoot get added.

I agree in that it would be great to see more info on just how significant (or I guess as they can be skipped over, insignificant) things like tactics, tweaking and labouring over those details are.