Thread for player identification in team photos

[cinemaodyssey]

I did find this Charles Williams photo in my files as well. Not sure which one, but it came from one of the Dayton newspapers.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I did find this Charles Williams photo in my files as well. Not sure which one, but it came from one of the Dayton newspapers.

I can see the similarity with the player next to Cub Strickler in this photo.

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Originally Posted by prewinter

There were three unidentified players in the team photo, and Munday was possibly one of those. Munday is shown below compared to each of these three players. My money is on the third player. The face of the second player seems too round, and the chin of the first player seems too sharp.

The remaining two players are like from Joe Schachern, David Levy or Gus Land. There is an image of David Levy with the previous discussion, and I wasn't able to find a decent match for him, so I think the other two players are more likely.

I came across a reference in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (February 24, 1889, pg. 16) that described Land as 21 years old, 6' 2" and 190 pounds. That could be the guy just to the right of manager Henry Harris. I thought this guy could be a match for Jack Munday, but the other two unidentified players don't seem to be young enough for 22 years old. That would put Munday as the unidentified player in the first row, and Schachern as the first person in the second row (on the left).

This photo was previously posted on the first page of this thread, but here it is with the updated proposed identifications:
Back row: Harry Hulin, Jack Munday, Bill Hassamaer, George Rhue, Jiggs Parrott, Bill Whitrock
Middle row: Joe Schachern, Gus Land, Henry Harris (Manager), Tom Parrott, Harry O'Day
Front Row: Frank Buchtel, Pat Whitaker
Italics are proposed based on the age of Gus Land at the time of the photo,

[cinemaodyssey]

Based on that new information, I would agree with your identifications.

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Originally Posted by prewinter

As for the second composite, in uniform, assuming it is the same club, there are three time frames for the photo. One is in April, when Small was absent, but a twelfth player was with the club. Pitcher E.E. Crump was signed at the start of April, presumably to fill out the spot Small wasn't around for yet. Crump was gone by late April. Ed Morkin came on board on April 24; he was around until he was released in early July. So from late April through early July, he could be one of the twelve.

The third might be in July. The Quad City Times reported on July 6 that new uniforms were being purchased for the club. Right around that time, wholesale changes were made, with five players being released (Manlove, Morkin, McSorely, Holacher and Jacoby), and a new crop of players signed, including Ed Mayer and Jerry Harrington, as well as the arrival of Small. If any of these three are in the second composite, that would set the date for it in July. On the other hand, if McSorely, released at the start of July, were in the composite, that would point to an April time frame.

Ed Morkin was identified as from London, Canada in the Quad City Times of April 24, 1888. He is pictured with the 1886 CPR Club of Winnipeg in the Manitoba Free Press on January 1, 1916. The picture is not very clear, but I could see him being one of the players in the 1888 Davenport composite with uniforms. It would make sense then that the photos were taken in late April, right as the season started. Morkin's photo is below. The composites are shown on Page 6 of this thread. The proposed identifications are still a mess.

[cinemaodyssey]

I found this interesting team photo in the 3/1/1914 edition of The Morning World Herald. It purports to be the 1883 Council Bluffs baseball team and certainly features many familiar names/faces. I haven't had a lot of luck in my brief searches in trying to lock down the year and any printed box scores.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

I found this interesting team photo in the 3/1/1914 edition of The Morning World Herald. It purports to be the 1883 Council Bluffs baseball team and certainly features many familiar names/faces. I haven't had a lot of luck in my brief searches in trying to lock down the year and any printed box scores.

On August 17, 1882 we have McSorley, Strock, and Smith in a box score together for Council Bluffs, playing against the Spalding's from Chicago, with Roach, Kuehne, Merrill, O'Day and Hagan for the Spaldings. Two days later, the Omaha Evening Bee reported that O'Day, Roche, Kuehne, Merrill and Hagan decided to stay with the Council Bluffs. That's everyone but Parker and Brennan identified in the photo.

My guess is that this photo was taken at the back end of 1882, possibly even around that time frame. I haven't found yet a box score with all these players together, but McSorley was in Peoria in 1883.

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Billy Roche is definitely in the 1886 Oshkosh photo, based on the image from the Council Bluff club. I was pretty sure before based on the timeline for that photo, but now I'm even more convinced.

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The 1886 Oshkosh team photo was discussed in a different thread, but not here, so here it is. The photo can also be found on the website for the Oshkosh Public Museum.

Proposed identifications are
Back row: Billy Hoy, Unknown 1, George Harper, Walt Kinzie, Jim Burns, Unknown 2
Seated, middle row: Billy Roche, Charlie Chase (club owner)
Front row: Ed Gastfield, Gus Krock, Unknown 3, Unknown 4, Charlie Ingraham

Does anyone know where the sketch of Ingraham on Baseball Reference came from? I've never been able to determine the source.

Krock didn't join the club until August 10, and Burns joined on August 17. That time frame puts some limits on who the remaining players can be. Frank Bishop was with the club all season, while Charlie Hallstrom joined the club in late June and remained with the team the rest of the season. They are two of the four unknown players.

James Gallagher joined the club on August 17, same as Burns. He was gone after September 4. James Hillery and Joseph Masram joined the club September 8 and September 14, respectively.

There is one other player - Bart Duane - who was with the club early on in the season and then vanished. The St. Paul Globe reported he was released in early September.

As fas as I know, there are no know photos of Bishop, Gallagher and Duane. There are photos of Hillery and Masram.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by prewinter

The 1886 Oshkosh team photo was discussed in a different thread, but not here, so here it is. The photo can also be found on the website for the Oshkosh Public Museum.

Proposed identifications are
Back row: Billy Hoy, Unknown 1, George Harper, Walt Kinzie, Jim Burns, Unknown 2
Seated, middle row: Billy Roche, Charlie Chase (club owner)
Front row: Ed Gastfield, Gus Krock, Unknown 3, Unknown 4, Charlie Ingraham

Krock didn't join the club until August 10, and Burns joined on August 17. That time frame puts some limits on who the remaining players can be. Frank Bishop was with the club all season, while Charlie Hallstrom joined the club in late June and remained with the team the rest of the season. They are two of the four unknown players.

James Gallagher joined the club on August 17, same as Burns. He was gone after September 4. James Hillery and Joseph Masram joined the club September 8 and September 14, respectively.

There is one other player - Bart Duane - who was with the club early on in the season and then vanished. The St. Paul Globe reported he was released in early September.

Here is a photo of Hallstrom, compared with the two unknown players in the back row.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by prewinter

The 1886 Oshkosh team photo was discussed in a different thread, but not here, so here it is. The photo can also be found on the website for the Oshkosh Public Museum.

Proposed identifications are
Back row: Billy Hoy, Unknown 1, George Harper, Walt Kinzie, Jim Burns, Unknown 2
Seated, middle row: Billy Roche, Charlie Chase (club owner)
Front row: Ed Gastfield, Gus Krock, Unknown 3, Unknown 4, Charlie Ingraham

Krock didn't join the club until August 10, and Burns joined on August 17. That time frame puts some limits on who the remaining players can be. Frank Bishop was with the club all season, while Charlie Hallstrom joined the club in late June and remained with the team the rest of the season. They are two of the four unknown players.

James Gallagher joined the club on August 17, same as Burns. He was gone after September 4. James Hillery and Joseph Masram joined the club September 8 and September 14, respectively.

There is one other player - Bart Duane - who was with the club early on in the season and then vanished. The St. Paul Globe reported he was released in early September.

As fas as I know, there are no know photos of Bishop, Gallagher and Duane. There are photos of Hillery and Masram.

Here a sketch of Hillery from the Nashville Daily American, 1886 March 04, also found on this website.
https://digital.library.nashville.or...id/4360/rec/39

[cinemaodyssey]

Thanks for the research on the Council Bluffs team. I had never seen that photo before and they sure had a lot of talent on that roster.


As to 1886 Oshkosh, Chickazoola did a lot of research on Gallagher and found that he was described to be a "diminutive and small" player. He likes the player front row center as the most likely candidate.



I like the player back from far right for Hallstrom. He matches the profile picture as well as the 1893 Chicago Whitings sketch the best to my eyes.


The sketch of Ingraham is in one of the old editions of Sporting Life but I couldn't tell you which one off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

Thanks for the research on the Council Bluffs team. I had never seen that photo before and they sure had a lot of talent on that roster.

As to 1886 Oshkosh, Chickazoola did a lot of research on Gallagher and found that he was described to be a "diminutive and small" player. He likes the player front row center as the most likely candidate.

I like the player back from far right for Hallstrom. He matches the profile picture as well as the 1893 Chicago Whitings sketch the best to my eyes.

The sketch of Ingraham is in one of the old editions of Sporting Life but I couldn't tell you which one off the top of my head.

Bart Duane was described in the Fort Wayne Daily Gazette (March 23, 1890, pg 9) as 5' 7", 160 pounds. He was with Dubuque in 1887 and 1888 and Austin in 1889. He hailed from Dubuque.

I'm not convinced that Baseball Reference has Gallagher identified properly. James Gallagher, the player credited, died in 1894 after falling down a mine shaft. An article in the Scranton Republican (March 30, 1894) noted he was a catcher, but made no mention of playing two seasons in the Northwestern League (1886-1887). The Rockford Daily Register indicated "Jovial Pete Gallagher of the Whitings is playing short stop for Eau Claire" on October 1, 1887. Gallagher, aka Galligan, was the Whitings in 1886 and 1887, and played one game in the majors in 1886. While it is clear that Gallagher in 1886 played with both Eau Claire and Oshkosh, he cannot be Pete Gallagher, because Pete was playing his one game in the majors on the same day Gallagher was playing his last game for Oshkosh in 1886. I saw a blurb somewhere suggesting that Gallagher and Krock were both signed by Eau Claire in Milwaukee. So anyway, I'm not convinced Gallagher with Oshkosh in 1886 is James Gallagher as identified in Baseball-Reference.

If Gallagher is in the photo, Hillery and Masram are not, and Duane is the fourth unidentified (with Hallstrom, Bishop and Gallagher). Otherwise it is Hallstrom, Bishop, Hillery and Masram.

I like the back right for Hallstrom as well, but the mouth on the other back row unidentified matches the look on the exemplar. The exemplar is from a book called The History of the Swedes (Vol. 2), 1908.

[cinemaodyssey]

Here are some additional photos of Hillery for reference, one from the 1885 Nashville team photo and another from the 1887 Oshkosh team composite.

[cinemaodyssey]

Originally Posted by prewinter

Bart Duane was described in the Fort Wayne Daily Gazette (March 23, 1890, pg 9) as 5' 7", 160 pounds. He was with Dubuque in 1887 and 1888 and Austin in 1889. He hailed from Dubuque.

I'm not convinced that Baseball Reference has Gallagher identified properly. James Gallagher, the player credited, died in 1894 after falling down a mine shaft. An article in the Scranton Republican (March 30, 1894) noted he was a catcher, but made no mention of playing two seasons in the Northwestern League (1886-1887). The Rockford Daily Register indicated "Jovial Pete Gallagher of the Whitings is playing short stop for Eau Claire" on October 1, 1887. Gallagher, aka Galligan, was the Whitings in 1886 and 1887, and played one game in the majors in 1886. While it is clear that Gallagher in 1886 played with both Eau Claire and Oshkosh, he cannot be Pete Gallagher, because Pete was playing his one game in the majors on the same day Gallagher was playing his last game for Oshkosh in 1886. I saw a blurb somewhere suggesting that Gallagher and Krock were both signed by Eau Claire in Milwaukee. So anyway, I'm not convinced Gallagher with Oshkosh in 1886 is James Gallagher as identified in Baseball-Reference.

If Gallagher is in the photo, Hillery and Masram are not, and Duane is the fourth unidentified (with Hallstrom, Bishop and Gallagher). Otherwise it is Hallstrom, Bishop, Hillery and Masram.

I like the back right for Hallstrom as well, but the mouth on the other back row unidentified matches the look on the exemplar. The exemplar is from a book called The History of the Swedes (Vol. 2), 1908.

I do like a mustachioed Hillery as the player front row, second from right. The ears and eyebrows as well as the jawline look like a decent match. So if Hillery is present we can toss the possibility of Gallagher being there and just need to identify Masram and Bishop. I don't have visual documentation of Masram so if you have something that'd help.

[cinemaodyssey]

I did locate a photo of one of Frank Bishop's sons, who was pictured in the 5/19/1904 edition of the Chicago Tribune. He may provide some familial similarities to a player in the 1886 team photo.

[prewinter]

This photo was printed in the March 31, 1923 Fort Wayne Sentinel with a caption identifying it as the 1887 Fort Wayne club. The caption names all but a few of the players, by which it is correctly dated to the 1883 club. Two players remain unidentified.

Back row (standing): Billy Geiss, Unknown 1, Jack Remsen, Unknown 2
Middle row (sitting): Billy Yott, Joe Brown, Jack McDonough, Ed Merrill, Milt Scott
Front row (on the ground): Tony Suck, Walt Kinzie, Marr Phillips

There are a lot of major league players on the club (in bold).

For the two unidentified players, there are three or four options as best I can tell. John McDonough joined the club at some point in June, 1883, and Tony Suck was ranted his release on July 25, so the time frame is sometime in those two months.

William (Billy) Forrest joined the club about the same time as McDonough, and is most likely one of the two unidentified players. Forrest came out of Chicago, where he played with the Chicago Blues.

John Kerins was with the club at the start of the season. He was gone by June 12, probably before McDonough came on board, but that is not confirmed.

James Hillery joined the club at some point in July, but I'm not sure exactly when.

Finally, Charles Maddock, a catcher from Guelph, Canada, joined the club in late June (Fort Wayne Daily News, June 20, 1883) and was released at some point in July.

The other players listed with the 1883 Fort Wayne club were either gone before June or arrived after Tony Suck left the club.

If I had to guess, I would say the remaining two players were Forrest and Maddock, but I have no photos of these players to compare against.

This photo is the only known photo of Ed Merrill. The remaining major leaguers have other photos. Comparisons suggest the identifications in the caption are correct, even though the year is wrong.

[cinemaodyssey]

Originally Posted by prewinter

This photo was printed in the March 31, 1923 Fort Wayne Sentinel with a caption identifying it as the 1887 Fort Wayne club. The caption names all but a few of the players, by which it is correctly dated to the 1883 club. Two players remain unidentified.

Back row (standing): Billy Geiss, Unknown 1, Jack Remsen, Unknown 2
Middle row (sitting): Billy Yott, Joe Brown, Jack McDonough, Ed Merrill, Milt Scott
Front row (on the ground): Tony Suck, Walt Kinzie, Marr Phillips

There are a lot of major league players on the club (in bold).

For the two unidentified players, there are three or four options as best I can tell. John McDonough joined the club at some point in June, 1883, and Tony Suck was ranted his release on July 25, so the time frame is sometime in those two months.

William (Billy) Forrest joined the club about the same time as McDonough, and is most likely one of the two unidentified players. Forrest came out of Chicago, where he played with the Chicago Blues.

John Kerins was with the club at the start of the season. He was gone by June 12, probably before McDonough came on board, but that is not confirmed.

James Hillery joined the club at some point in July, but I'm not sure exactly when.

Finally, Charles Maddock, a catcher from Guelph, Canada, joined the club in late June (Fort Wayne Daily News, June 20, 1883) and was released at some point in July.

The other players listed with the 1883 Fort Wayne club were either gone before June or arrived after Tony Suck left the club.

If I had to guess, I would say the remaining two players were Forrest and Maddock, but I have no photos of these players to compare against.

This photo is the only known photo of Ed Merrill. The remaining major leaguers have other photos. Comparisons suggest the identifications in the caption are correct, even though the year is wrong.

This photo was one of my earliest newspaper discoveries. I was quite proud of finding Merrill since he was both a missing player and a missing umpire.
I've attached 2 photos of Maddock, a player that is well represented among the many team photos of the Guelph, CA museum. Circa 1874 and 1882.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

This photo was one of my earliest newspaper discoveries. I was quite proud of finding Merrill since he was both a missing player and a missing umpire.
I've attached 2 photos of Maddock, a player that is well represented among the many team photos of the Guelph, CA museum. Circa 1874 and 1882.

I saw your original posting for Merrill when I was looking for information about this photo. I like the second unidentified player (to Remsen's left) as Maddock, although my copy is a bit blury, making the distinction between the two unidentified players a little more difficult.

I had just found that second image of Maddock online (in a very blury copy), but one of the other names caught my eye - Fred Dyson, in the front row. The Fort Wayne paper mentioned Dyson and Maddock as a battery for some of the exhibition games played in early July by the Fort Wayne club. I'm wondering if that was Fred Dyson, and they imported both players for a tryout.

[cinemaodyssey]

Originally Posted by prewinter

I saw your original posting for Merrill when I was looking for information about this photo. I like the second unidentified player (to Remsen's left) as Maddock, although my copy is a bit blury, making the distinction between the two unidentified players a little more difficult.

I had just found that second image of Maddock online (in a very blury copy), but one of the other names caught my eye - Fred Dyson, in the front row. The Fort Wayne paper mentioned Dyson and Maddock as a battery for some of the exhibition games played in early July by the Fort Wayne club. I'm wondering if that was Fred Dyson, and they imported both players for a tryout.

Here's the photo I have on file for the 1882 Guelph team. Hopefully it's clearer.