Do You Trust the Arrows when Promoting in the Minors?

[Skevich]

Many of my prospects in my minors have arrows next to their names, either a red one pointing down to indicate demotion, or green arrow pointing up for promotion. How much do you take stock in these arrow markers for your prospects moving up or down in your organization?

[Sweed]

No.

The arrows were even removed from OOTP at one time and only added back in because some users complained. Fair enough, I don't like it either when things are removed.

The only way arrows come into play for me is as something that draws my attention to a player that MAY be ready for a move. Then, same as any other player I look at, I dig into their stats, ratings, age, years, etc. and make my decision. Most of the time a glance is all it takes for me to know the arrow is "wrong" from my point of view.

[BaseballGOAT]

The arrows mean I look at that player and decide for myself what to do... I rarely promote a prospect before at least 3 months at a level. Usually more like 2/3s of a season

[PSUColonel]

They need to be removed

[tonnage]

Originally Posted by Sweed

No.
The only way arrows come into play for me is as something that draws my attention to a player that MAY be ready for a move. Then, same as any other player I look at, I dig into their stats, ratings, age, years, etc. and make my decision. Most of the time a glance is all it takes for me to know the arrow is "wrong" from my point of view.

What he said. Cheers!

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

They need to be removed

Made optional maybe, but definitely not removed.

[Skevich]

Ok thanks guys!

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by BaseballGOAT

Made optional maybe, but definitely not removed.

why not? They serve no purpose. In fact they confuse people more than anything. There is no reason that by now, you shouldn't be ale to ask individual coaches their opinions on players' development.

[BaseballGOAT]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

why not? They serve no purpose. In fact they confuse people more than anything. There is no reason that by now, you shouldn't be ale to ask individual coaches their opinions on players' development.

But you can't and so I use the arrows as if it's the opinion of my minor league coaches. So then when they say someone is ready to go up or needs to go down, I tend to pay more attention to that player for a while. It also helps me decide who goes up to cover injuries that require IL placement

[CH1MA3RA]

I would love to see some more functionality with these arrows and the coaches/asst. gm suggestion idea that PSU made. I mostly ignore them however I look at the arrows as an indicator of what would happen if I let the AI control the minor league system (which is why I don't let that happen).

[PSUColonel]

well, I forgot...there IS a reason, but I won't go down that rabbit hole now.

[tonnage]

Originally Posted by CH1MA3RA

I look at the arrows as an indicator of what would happen if I let the AI control the minor league system (which is why I don't let that happen).

Ain't that the truth, but not always... sometimes the arrows are correct. Having said that, I won't let the AI run my minor systems either. Too often the AI makes silly moves that I feel would hamper and not help my player's development. Same reason I won't let my minor league managers sign/release players... that's on me.

[Pelican]

The red down arrows seem to me to be close to random. Not only do they make no sense for individual players, sometimes I see them for most of a minor league team. You can’t demote everybody; nor would they all deserve it.

The green arrows seem to be less frequent (or maybe my minor league system really sucks), and generally do indicate a player who might deserve a promotion. But then they ignore guys on the same team with a better argument. And there does not seem to be any correlation with age or history in prior years. And, finally, they do not appear to correlate with scouting reports. Such a disconnect.

It would be great to be able to toggle them off.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by tonnage

Ain't that the truth, but not always... sometimes the arrows are correct. Having said that, I won't let the AI run my minor systems either. Too often the AI makes silly moves that I feel would hamper and not help my player's development. Same reason I won't let my minor league managers sign/release players... that's on me.

I see nothing wrong with going off of ratings and stats…but I do think every member of the staff should each have an opinion on players in your organization….or at least on that particular team for coaches. It’s then up to the GM (you) to either take the recommendations or not. As for the AI, I should think there would need to be a multitude of factors involved. Obviously ratings and stats matter most..but after that you may need some other factors as coaches abilities, reputation, assistant GM traits, GM traits etc…

Basically what I’m saying is I would simply dump the entire “arrow” system in n lieu of something better. The AI suffers for it also as noted.

This AI system has been in place for 20 years or more, and is simply archaic. Toggling them off just masks the underlying issues.

It’s like when you take over the counter medicine to make you feel better…you may feel better, but you’re still sick, and haven’t truly treated the infection.

[tonnage]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Basically what I’m saying is I would simply dump the entire “arrow” system in n lieu of something better. The AI suffers for it also as noted.

Agreed!

[Bluenoser]

Every AI run team I've seen manages to develop their prospects, same as human run teams. I don't see AI Prospects getting abused or lacking proper development because of the arrow system. So I'm not quite sure how the AI suffers for it. They obviously manage their minors fairly well.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of the arrow system by any means, I don't pay attention to them myself, but I also don't see the AI suffering because of it.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Every AI run team I've seen manages to develop their prospects, same as human run teams. I don't see AI Prospects getting abused or lacking proper development because of the arrow system. So I'm not quite sure how the AI suffers for it. They obviously manage their minors fairly well.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of the arrow system by any means, I don't pay attention to them myself, but I also don't see the AI suffering because of it.

well it's my assumption that the arrows are a window into what the AI is thinking. As noted previously, those opinions are worthless. I don't think you can say in one breath that the arrows are useless and make no sense, only to then say the AI does a good job. The arrows are basically what the AI is "thinking"

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

well it's my assumption that the arrows are a window into what the AI is thinking. As noted previously, those opinions are worthless. I don't think you can say in one breath that the arrows are useless and make no sense, only to then say the AI does a good job. The arrows are basically what the AI is "thinking"

I didn't say they are useless. I said I don't pay any attention to them.

Obviously some OOTP users find them useful, otherwise there wouldn't have been such a clamor when they were taken out previously.

A few versions back someone made a MOD of a blank arrow that could be put in the skins folder to replace the coloured ones so they wouldn't show. Not sure if it's still around.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by Bluenoser

Every AI run team I've seen manages to develop their prospects, same as human run teams. I don't see AI Prospects getting abused or lacking proper development because of the arrow system. So I'm not quite sure how the AI suffers for it. They obviously manage their minors fairly well.

I'm not saying I'm a fan of the arrow system by any means, I don't pay attention to them myself, but I also don't see the AI suffering because of it.

Mirrors my experience with my game.

A little example from my game.

Pittsburgh with it's small budget has been a perennial loser and received some nice high draft picks. They made wise choices taking a stud SS and CF overall #1 in back to back years. They also made some nice 2-6 round picks along with hitting on some low rounders too getting arms and whatever else they needed. At the same time they discovered what would be a #1 overall pick that plays RF from the DR. I watched these guys coming up through the minors at a snails pace. Too slow, I thought. What are you waiting for? Continually had stats and ratings that I thought "if they were mine they'd be playing at least one level up".

In the end patience paid off and the Pirates AI GM did the right thing with it's minor leagues. Also impressive is the veterans it has signed to fill out the club. Specifically a switch hitting C and a SP at reasonable rates.

My current season they are all finally up at the same time at the start of the season (they all got some time last year). Preseason the Pirates were predicted to win the NL Central (My Cubs won the division last year) but started out something like 3-15. May comes and the trio starts to hit their stride. It's now Sept 3rd and they are a half game behind me and, to be honest, I'm feeling like I'm a wild card team compared to them, and I'm the defending WS Champs with a team that returned all of my core.

I've seen other teams do the same type of thing developing players in my game. The AI system may be the same over the last 20 years but, that doesn't mean it hasn't been tweaked under the hood with each new version.

[brigmcneil]

I don't mind the arrows. For me they are just another small indicator just like our scouts. Remember Billy Bean's rant with his scouts in Moneyball? "If the ratings say he can hit, why isn't he hitting?" :-)