Does batter WAR in OOTP include his fielding?

[Brad K]

???

[Sweed]

Good question. I think it does, but don't know if for sure.

My GG catcher lead my team in WAR last season while being 10th in WRC+. He did lead the league in framing and as noted won the gold glove.
Slash line was .275/.345/.370. 95 wrc+, ops+ 91, 3.3 war.

second in WAR on the club
.288/.334/.506. 30 HR, 118 wrc+, 119 ops+, 3.0 WAR. Played an average 1b, think in the lineup for hitting not his glove.

8 guys were above 100 in wrc+.

I do use the saber stats, but have never dug into the formulas to know if my assumption based on this catcher's stats hold water. I have seen many other players with limited batting skills post some good WAR numbers and, like my C, assumed it was due to their great defense.

[kidd_05_u2]

Yes

[jpeters1734]

100% yes

[Brad K]

Cool. So if I have a really good hitter who is a really bad fielder I can use WAR to see if he's net above water.

[md40022]

I would say I'm 99% sure the answer is yes.

And I base that on having Dansby Swanson on my team for my sim. He's put up excellent WAR numbers with just solid offensive stats that are perfectly acceptable, but wouldn't yield the WAR that he posts. Meanwhile, he has very strong defensive numbers so he has been the reason that I've been under the impression that defense does factor into OOTP WAR.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by Brad K

Cool. So if I have a really good hitter who is a really bad fielder I can use WAR to see if he's net above water.

Yes, at least in theory. I don't know if anyone ever tested how OOTP WAR correlates with wins and losses.

[jpeters1734]

This isn't an OOTP-only stat. Here's the definition:

Individual WAR values are calculated from the number and success rate of on-field actions by a player (in batting, baserunning, fielding, and pitching), with higher values reflecting larger contributions to a team's success. WAR value also depends on what position a player plays, with more value going to key defensive positions like catcher and shortstop than positions with less defensive importance such as first base.[2] A high WAR value built up by a player reflects successful performance, a large quantity of playing time, or both.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

This isn't an OOTP-only stat. Here's the definition:

Individual WAR values are calculated from the number and success rate of on-field actions by a player (in batting, baserunning, fielding, and pitching), with higher values reflecting larger contributions to a team's success. WAR value also depends on what position a player plays, with more value going to key defensive positions like catcher and shortstop than positions with less defensive importance such as first base.[2] A high WAR value built up by a player reflects successful performance, a large quantity of playing time, or both.

I've always believed that to be accurate, but where it gets a little misleading is certain sites out there will after giving WAR then give dWAR as a separate stat. And in those cases it's always made me wonder if they are pulling defense out of their general WAR number, more or less making an oWAR and a dWAR, or does WAR still include all aspects and their dWAR is just a little side stat. Baseball Reference for example I believe very clearly gives oWAR and dWAR as where ESPN gives WAR and dWAR which can be a little confusing

But yes, anytime I've seen WAR I have always been under the impression all aspects are included.

[kidd_05_u2]

WAR includes offense and defense, but keep in mind that oWAR and dWAR are not the same (dWAR adds up to zero or close)

What I said about OOTP WAR is because the game uses a simplified WAR calculation and some of the stats that make up WAR are not produced in a genuine way in the game engine. Thus, it is a little dangerous to assume that all the traits and correlations that WAR has in real life apply to the game in the same way.

For example, real-life WAR is supposed to add up to 590 for batters and 410 for pitchers (I hope Uruguru is reading this). Does this happen in OOTP?

[jpeters1734]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

WAR includes offense and defense, but keep in mind that oWAR and dWAR are not the same (dWAR adds up to zero or close)

What I said about OOTP WAR is because the game uses a simplified WAR calculation and some of the stats that make up WAR are not produced in a genuine way in the game engine. Thus, it is a little dangerous to assume that all the traits and correlations that WAR has in real life apply to the game in the same way.

For example, real-life WAR is supposed to add up to 590 for batters and 410 for pitchers (I hope Uruguru is reading this). Does this happen in OOTP?

A quick sim in a 30 team, 162 game season, I got 658.3 total WAR for batters and 464.2 total WAR for pitchers

[uruguru]

Keep in mind that WAR has massive error bars.. at least +/- 1 full WAR. This means that a 4-war player may not be as good as a 3-war player.

WAR is an extremely complicated stat that no one here has calculated from base data and contains lots of normalizations and "judgement calls" that increase its variability. Did you know that player salaries are a component?

As someone involved in sabermetrics very early on, I have come to hate WAR, btw. It's literally like the worst stat ever made. It's everything that we baseball stat geeks ever wanted (a single value stat to rate players), but to get it we had to remove all meaning, accuracy, and verifiability. So now we have this number that everyone uses without question and its inaccurate and useful for just one thing only... ranking players.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by uruguru

Did you know that player salaries are a component?

I'm assuming you say this meaning that WAR is supposedly based off comparing Player X to a replacement level (league minimum salary) player.

The actual contract of Player X has no bearing on his WAR number though........ or am I wrong in saying that?

If the Cubs are happy with Cody Bellinger's bounce back and they decide to lock him up on a long term big money deal tomorrow, his WAR doesn't immediately drop because now his production value compared to his salary has changed.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by uruguru

Keep in mind that WAR has massive error bars.. at least +/- 1 full WAR. This means that a 4-war player may not be as good as a 3-war player.

WAR is an extremely complicated stat that no one here has calculated from base data and contains lots of normalizations and "judgement calls" that increase its variability. Did you know that player salaries are a component?

As someone involved in sabermetrics very early on, I have come to hate WAR, btw. It's literally like the worst stat ever made. It's everything that we baseball stat geeks ever wanted (a single value stat to rate players), but to get it we had to remove all meaning, accuracy, and verifiability. So now we have this number that everyone uses without question and its inaccurate and useful for just one thing only... ranking players.

I don't understand blaming the stat for people's inability to use it well.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

A quick sim in a 30 team, 162 game season, I got 658.3 total WAR for batters and 464.2 total WAR for pitchers

That's actually really good. Thanks for sharing the numbers.

There are old threads in the forum that suggest the WAR distribution was borked years ago. It's reassuring to see they keep refining this stuff.

[snepp]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

For example, real-life WAR is supposed to add up to 590 for batters and 410 for pitchers

Originally Posted by jpeters1734

A quick sim in a 30 team, 162 game season, I got 658.3 total WAR for batters and 464.2 total WAR for pitchers

Good stuff, I learned something today. Out of curiosity I checked my 16-team league, basically MLB setup, 2010 settings.

2592 total games (53.3% of MLB)
320 total batter WAR (54.2% of 590)
224 total pitching WAR (54.6% of 410)

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by md40022

I'm assuming you say this meaning that WAR is supposedly based off comparing Player X to a replacement level (league minimum salary) player.

The actual contract of Player X has no bearing on his WAR number though........ or am I wrong in saying that?

About a year ago I did a deep dive into the underlying assumptions and calculations of WAR. There was a section about determining the relative contribution of pitching and hitting, and the underlying ratio was driven in part by the amounts teams spent on hitters and pitchers. That's how I recall it, but my memory may be fuzzy.

I'm getting off my WAR soapbox now!

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I don't understand blaming the stat for people's inability to use it well.

I find discussions of WAR interesting, since my impression is that anyone who says they dislike WAR (not fWAR, rWAR, or any other specific valuation, but WAR in general) just doesn't understand it.

If someone has an opinion on whether deGrom is more or less valuable than Cole, or Judge is more or less valuable than Soto, or Ted Williams is more or less valuable than DiMaggio- that person is relying on WAR for that opinion.

[uruguru]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

I find discussions of WAR interesting, since my impression is that anyone who says they dislike WAR (not fWAR, rWAR, or any other specific valuation, but WAR in general) just doesn't understand it.

Have you ever attempted to calculate WAR for a player?

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by snepp

Good stuff, I learned something today. Out of curiosity I checked my 16-team league, basically MLB setup, 2010 settings.

2592 total games (53.3% of MLB)
320 total batter WAR (54.2% of 590)
224 total pitching WAR (54.6% of 410)

That's really good too.