Does this add up? Fenway & Baker Bowl

[HonusWagner]

How come doubles are rare at Baker Bowl ?

[Sweed]

Quick glance but I'd say because so many balls will exit the field and not be in play? 19% bump in HR that includes a 37% bump for LHB. While Fenway reduces HR 25% and 33% for LHB. The Fenway balls have a big CF to RF area to roll around in. Baker has a much smaller outfield that includes a short porch in RF, but a similar sized LF (that isn't large in either park).

No idea what the real stats were for Baker Bowl, but the factors look reasonable to me. If this is Silvam's I believe he has said that he used OOTP's park factor generator to set his historic ballpark factors.

[HonusWagner]

First, I would think the wall heights would turn most lines over the LF in Boston and RF in Philly into a double. In the opposite direction the short fences would produce more automatic doubles. The same league has Philly, Boston 1, 2 in HR, whereas in doubles Boston is 6th and Philly near the bottom. Could it be a deadball era phenomenon, where the balls are either launched high or tend to fall in, vs frozen ropes that -- bounce off or over walls. A 40ft fence should be generating a fair number of doubles.

because so many balls will exit the field and not be in play?

Exit?

[LansdowneSt]

Maybe the factors need a relook. Are those OOTP ones or from a mod?

https://www.seamheads.com/ballparks/...=BOS07&tab=pf3

https://www.seamheads.com/ballparks/...=PHI09&tab=pf3

Those are the 3-year regressed ones but the site has one-year ones too.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Maybe the factors need a relook. Are those OOTP ones or from a mod?

https://www.seamheads.com/ballparks/...=BOS07&tab=pf3

https://www.seamheads.com/ballparks/...=PHI09&tab=pf3

Those are the 3-year regressed ones but the site has one-year ones too.

I don't know. For my parks I do the recalc after loading the .prk so likely factors are whatever the park developer included ?

[HonusWagner]

At Bakers anything launched over a RFers head must likely be more often a double than a HR, in RL. That's a +40ft wall. The GM is a fence in comparison.

[Le Grande Orange]

According to Retrosheet's data, from 1901 through 1938, the home team hit a total of 10,167 doubles in the Baker Bowl while hitting 8,052 in other parks. In Fenway Park, from 1912 through 2022, the home team hit 33,330 double as compared to 27,785 in other parks.

However, limiting the time frame to when both parks were in use (1912 through 1938), the Baker Bowl had 8,094 doubles hit by the home team versus 6,103 doubles hit in other parks, whereas Fenway Park had 7,444 doubles hit by the home team versus 7,715 hit in other parks.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

However, limiting the time frame to when both parks were in use (1912 through 1938), the Baker Bowl had 8,094 doubles hit by the home team versus 6,103 doubles hit in other parks, whereas Fenway Park had 7,444 doubles hit by the home team versus 7,715 hit in other parks.

Right, so that suggests the factors are off, as one would expect with those dimensions.

This is from wikipedia, so we know it contains facts:

The right field wall came to be known as the Baker Wall after William Baker who ran the club from 1913 until his death in 1930. The right field wall and screen in its final form was 60 feet (18 m) high. By comparison, Fenway Park's left field wall, the Green Monster, is 37 feet (11 m) high, and 310 feet (94 m) away.

The wall was an amalgam of different materials. It was originally a masonry structure topped by a wire fence.

With the advent of the live-ball era in 1920, it became significantly easier to hit home runs over the near right field wall. The Phillies extended the barrier upward with masonry, wood, and a metal pipe-and-wire screen. The lower part of the wall was rough[31] and eventually a layer of tin was laid over the entire structure except for the upper part of the screen.

Because of its material, it made a distinctive sound when balls ricocheted off it, as happened frequently. The clubhouse was located above and behind the center field wall.[3] No batter ever hit a ball over the clubhouse, but Rogers Hornsby once hit a ball through a window.[3]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_Bowl

So could be a phenomenon of deadball, as am in season 1918.

[kq76]

FWIW, I think there's a common misconception that the Green Monster creates most of Fenway's doubles, but I'm not so sure about that. If you look at the park factors, LHB 2B is considerably higher than RHB 2B. I think it's the expansive RF and its short (in height) wall that creates more doubles than the GM. Well, I'm sure some opposing fielders probably have a tough time with the GM, but I think experienced fielders are more likely to turn balls hit off the GM into singles rather than doubles.

And other than Baker Bowl's close high wall in RF, which I would expect would create a lot of LHB HRs from what would be long flies in other parks (and the PFs show that), and its somewhat deep CF, which would create some doubles (and triples), its dimensions aren't that off from today's average. The whole left side is either fairly average or shorter than average in distance. That said, that short (in height) left field wall would probably create a lot of automatic doubles like the OP pointed out Fenway gets.

Anyway, I'm not saying the PFs are wrong or right. I don't know, I'm just pointing out that I don't think it's so much the wall the creates the doubles, that it's more likely the opposite field that does.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

I don't know. For my parks I do the recalc after loading the .prk so likely factors are whatever the park developer included ?

I think that button removes the imported factors and generates new ones solely based on the dimensions of the park.

Weird dimensions like these two parks likely are not handled well by that process.

[HonusWagner]

Ok so the imported BF are assigned by the developer? Will try that next season.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by kq76

FWIW, I think there's a common misconception that the Green Monster creates most of Fenway's doubles, but I'm not so sure about that. If you look at the park factors, LHB 2B is considerably higher than RHB 2B. I think it's the expansive RF that creates more doubles than the GM. Well, I'm sure some opposing fielders probably have a tough time with the GM, but I think experienced fielders are more likely to turn balls hit off the GM into singles rather than doubles.

And other than Baker Bowl's short high wall in RF, which I would expect would create a lot of LHB HRs (and the PFs show that), and its somewhat deep CF, which would create some doubles, its dimensions aren't that off from today's average. The whole left side is either fairly average or shorter than average.

And likely same with Baker Wall.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

First, I would think the wall heights would turn most lines over the LF in Boston and RF in Philly into a double. In the opposite direction the short fences would produce more automatic doubles. The same league has Philly, Boston 1, 2 in HR, whereas in doubles Boston is 6th and Philly near the bottom. Could it be a deadball era phenomenon, where the balls are either launched high or tend to fall in, vs frozen ropes that -- bounce off or over walls. A 40ft fence should be generating a fair number of doubles.



Exit?

"Exit?" Home Runs. IOW with the short fence distance (not height) balls don't find a gap or rattle around in the corner. They simply leave the yard.

In my response I wasn't looking at the wall heights. In OOTP terms I don't think they matter, it's just the factor themselves that are used to determine the result. Having said that the factors (based on real life stats) do account for all of the extra doubles in your Fenway example. If it's a mod-maker's ballpark he either sets the factors himself or uses the "ballpark factor generator" to do it for him. As noted I believe Silvam has stated he lets the game set the factors, which I believe does not take wall height into account. Though I may be wrong.

So in your post I take the Fenway factors as being original OOTP. They have a lot of doubles due to using real life stats, which come about because IRL there is a spacious CF-RF area, and GM. While low HR factors for the same reasons the doubles are increased, they are based on real life stats.

I take Baker Bowl as a mod park, and if Silvam's I believe the factors were autocalced, meaning that the short distances are increasing HR as the heights aren't being taken into account by the "park factor creation tool".

Totally possible that I'm wrong on how the ballpark factors tool works. Maybe it does take height into account. If so, I'm sure someone will let me know.

[The Game]

Here's mine. It's basically Baker Bowl.