Is OOTP still getting better?

[Irrelevant Dude]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

You are correct here. The problem for myself and some others I think is that we prioritize the front office/management aspects of OOTP. It simply became a case of “eye candy = sales”

So would you say the management aspects are:
A) Still improving significantly year over year
B) Still making small incremental improvements
C) Largely stagnant
D) Regressing slightly due to increased focus on other areas
E) Getting significantly worse

[MathBandit]

Somewhere around a B+.

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by mytreds

Bingo. Instead of catering to the few, reliable, faithful fanatics, a company that turns its focus to graphics and gambling mechanics (PT) is catering to the masses. See under “EA Madden” for an example of how that turns out.

Record sales? The trouble with Madden, to my eye, is they removed franchise features instead of keeping what they had as they upgraded graphics and added MUT. Unlike OOTP that has made small changes to front office, continued to add more stats yearly, while at the same time making big changes graphically, and doing a lot of under the hood changes to other modules in the game. I haven't loved what Madden has done, but OOTP is not Madden.

I don't see graphics being anything like gambling mechanics. PT is an on going money generator over the life of the product. Graphics are paid for with a simple purchase of the game, not a perpetual money generator. Apples and oranges.

Yeah OOTP has generated money with PT, Madden with MUT, and FM joins the
money grab requiring those that want to play their mobile version to have Neflix. Which one of those can you play for free, if you so choose?

One can be a reliable, faithful fanatic about OOTP, and have graphics higher on their wish list than a deeper front office. It's not one or the other. For some of us that manage every game the on field, graphics are as, or maybe more, important than expanding the front office side of the game. As a "front office" user sees graphics as "eye candy" a "on field manager" can see "FM like financials/front office experience" as mind numbing stuff that would be handed off to a front office AI staff. Having said that, if Markus decided for v25 it was time to slow down on graphics and make a huge upgrade to the front office, you wouldn't hear a complaint out of me. I'd take it and find something in it that made the game better for me. I've always been fine with how he's steered the ship.

[Bobbyraz49]

Originally Posted by Sweed

Don't forget the "I'm retired so whenever I get the urge.".

Agree. I'm retired.

[Syd Thrift]

Originally Posted by mytreds

Bingo. Instead of catering to the few, reliable, faithful fanatics, a company that turns its focus to graphics and gambling mechanics (PT) is catering to the masses. See under “EA Madden” for an example of how that turns out.

Even if you're a pure stats person, it's unquestionable that OOTP has a toooooon more features every year than Madden does or even has done since long, long before their gacha thing was out. Madden today is virtually indistinguishable from Madden 2008 except for some of (not even all of!) the graphics.

I'll be honest and I've said this before but the unpopular but true opinion here is that OOTP has one big direction left to move in and I'm not entirely sure that a. it will do so any time soon and b. that doing so will survive the loss of the purists. Here I'm talking about switching to a more physics-based model. We now have tooooons of stats we never used to have on swing percentage, barrel rate, exit velocity, and so on, all kinds of components to hitting and pitching that are far, far more granular than "avoiding strikeouts" or "home run power". It's surely possible to make a simulation right now that would work with those metrics, and as the actual game begins to embrace those stats in favor of the traditional ones more and more, so too shall a proper simulation of it need to do so.

But of course what we don't have is any kind of data for historical seasons. We have data from the past decade or so now and we can extrapolate to some degree, but, like, how do you account for the fact that players struck out like 30% as often as they do now in the 1950s? Do you make velocities slower so balls are easier to hit? Do you increase contact percentages so that Ted Williams would hit like .450 in the modern era? Surely there's something in between that but... what? Even a sim that takes you back to the year 1955 and which hits the stats exactly on the nose using an engine like this is liable to feel "fake" to some, and in the absence of any kind of data like this (and no way of even creating it after the fact in the pre-TV era), there's little to no way to prove that it's not, much less move it closer to real.

I mean, sure, before we have to get to that point, let's go ahead and add cheap wins and tough losses and baserunners bequeathed and stuff. I'm all for that. But younger statty fans are already starting to eschew stuff like BaseballReference (which to me is a clear successor to the MacMillan and Neft & Cohen encyclopedias) in favor of FanGraphs and BaseballCube. This is the way forward, whether it's taken by OOTP or <insert the successor to OOTP here>.

All that said, I'm going to go back to what I said: given that we have this huge issue with the game in its current state, getting a decent-enough graphics engine that makes the game feel like a modern version of Microleague Baseball or Earl Weaver was absolutely huge and not just to "the younger fans". This was a pretty huge add IMO, maybe not quite as big as moving to the "pitchers don't affect BABIP" engine but still huge. It makes the experience more interesting for a lot of us and that alone does in fact mean it's as big an add as extra layers of stats, better AI, and all of that.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Irrelevant Dude

So would you say the management aspects are:
A) Still improving significantly year over year
B) Still making small incremental improvements
C) Largely stagnant
D) Regressing slightly due to increased focus on other areas
E) Getting significantly worse

I am not PSU, but I would say a C since around OOTP 18 or so.
We have gotten a few new interesting features like future drafts, 15 year deals and 10 person trades.

But also some nasty bugs that make long term simulations harder or if you are not careful can ruin your league.

I refunded OOTP 24. But in my time with the game, my first off season, 30% of the league was traded my first offseason.

I know that has since been tuned. But how do things like that make it out of testing?

The GM/Front office aspect of this game has improved at a glacial pace.
And for me personally, I have turned into a once every 3 or 4 version buyer.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I am not PSU, but I would say a C since around OOTP 18 or so.
We have gotten a few new interesting features like future drafts, 15 year deals and 10 person trades.

But also some nasty bugs that make long term simulations harder or if you are not careful can ruin your league.

I refunded OOTP 24. But in my time with the game, my first off season, 30% of the league was traded my first offseason.

I know that has since been tuned. But how do things like that make it out of testing?

The GM/Front office aspect of this game has improved at a glacial pace.
And for me personally, I have turned into a once every 3 or 4 version buyer.

Yeah, I think this is a pretty fair assessment. It's not that there haven't been improvements in this area of the game because there certainly have. I think the issue for many of us though is that it feels like ever since the introduction of other parts of the game, the pace has slowed to a point that it really feels like this is really no longer a major priority of OOTPD.
Some of the of the features that have been introduced over the years can feel a bit underwhelming and/or unfinished. Team chemistry & staff would be an example of this.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

I am not PSU, but I would say a C since around OOTP 18 or so.
We have gotten a few new interesting features like future drafts, 15 year deals and 10 person trades.

But also some nasty bugs that make long term simulations harder or if you are not careful can ruin your league.

I refunded OOTP 24. But in my time with the game, my first off season, 30% of the league was traded my first offseason.

I know that has since been tuned. But how do things like that make it out of testing?

The GM/Front office aspect of this game has improved at a glacial pace.
And for me personally, I have turned into a once every 3 or 4 version buyer.

Exactly.

1) The released product should as a default or optional set-up understood to be the best representation of the developer’s vision. If that means certain half-baked options are disabled based on testing results, so be it. Instead, purchasers play the roles of testers and bug detectors even using the out-of-the-box settings.

2) Another option would be to use a default QuickStart for this purpose. People here claim that the game is the product of committed iterative development. Yet, the exact same default fictional QuickStart has been copy-and-pasted into each new release for at least a decade. This fact presents three possible interpretations:

a) The game in fact has not undergone significant underlying development, such as would require changes to the default representative QuickStart.

b) The game has undergone the claimed degree of development for the last ten years, but the developers cannot be bothered to give the users a correspondingly updated QuickStart optimized for this evolution.

c) In their infinite wisdom, the developers long ago created a future-proof QuickStart.

Whether a user cares about the forgoing is a matter of personal prerogative. That they are valid observations is not.

[Eugene Church]

I have bought every version since OOTP3 and I have been pleased with it each year... I am a graphics guy... logos, jerseys, caps and 3D animation... just play a general game without doing the financials and management... I just create a league and watch it unfold... I do not like the business of baseball... sim the regular season and play out each playoff game in the one-pitch mode.

Love the 3D animation... the game has really improved in this area since OOTP18.
Graphically the game is beautiful... I get totally immersed in my Islandian Pro Alliance and South Island Leagues because of the 3D animation and my wonderful graphics created by the wonderful guys on the OOTP Mods and Graphics Forum.

OOTP is not perfect... I could write page after page on ways to improve the game... News and Game Recaps are just fair... could be done a lot better IMO... I don't think much is being done in those areas the last few years... I just accept the game' shortcomings and live with them.

Still OOTP is an absolutely great game... a huge bargain at $40 per year... 10 cents a day for a great game.

EC DEARLY LOOOOOVES OOTP!!

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Team chemistry & staff would be an example of this.

I turn these two things off, because along with the half baked coaching system.
They make no goddamn sense

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Eugene Church

I have bought every version since OOTP3 and I have been pleased with it each year... I am a graphics guy... logos, jerseys, caps and 3D animation... just play a general game without doing the financials and management... I just create a league and watch it unfold... I do not like the business of baseball... sim the regular season and play out each playoff game in the one-pitch mode.

Love the 3D animation... the game has really improved in this area since OOTP18.
Graphically the game is beautiful... I get totally immersed in my Islandian Pro Alliance and South Island Leagues because of the 3D animation and my wonderful graphics created by the wonderful guys on the OOTP Mods and Graphics Forum.

OOTP is not perfect... I could write page after page on ways to improve the game... News and Game Recaps are just fair... could be done a lot better IMO... I don't think much is being done in those areas the last few years... I just accept the game' shortcomings and live with them.

Still OOTP is an absolutely great game... a huge bargain at $40 per year... 10 cents a day for a great game.

EC DEARLY LOOOOOVES OOTP!!

And I do not begrudge anyone who enjoys OOTP, even year to year.

I wish I could still be in that camp.

I envy the people who have time to watch or manage every game.
I wish I could be one of these people. But with a full time job and two young kids and a wife and other responsibilities, I simply do not have the time to watch or manage games.

And I on the opposite side of you, I love the business side of sport, I love to juggle the financials .
The way my mind works, I love having a problem and having to solve it with limited resources.

In this case, the problem is winning a championship and the resources are money, roster spots and draft picks.



OOTPs greatest strength may be that it caters to a lot of different interests.
It greatest weakness may also be that it caters to a lot of different interests.

For players like me, we have gotten very little in the way of new tools and features to make it feel like we are the actual GM of a professional baseball team.

The financial system is still stone age simple. Scouting is an obtuse mess.
Morale and coaching morale makes no sense at all.
We get to hire maybe, four coaches now? And 2 extra front office people?

I am not asking to have to manage every person in my organization down to the interns. But in 2023, why can I not hire medical personnel, data analytics staff, scouting directors for both domestic and international areas.
Why can I not interact with agents?

So many missing areas and missing opportunities.


This is still a great series and really the best and only option for baseball.
But for the GM minded gamer, it has badly stagnated.

For those that play the game in other ways. I am glad they get enjoyment out of it.
And even for some of those who play the way I do, they may disagree with me.
And that is okay

[pauwoo]

Originally Posted by Irrelevant Dude

So would you say the management aspects are:
A) Still improving significantly year over year
B) Still making small incremental improvements
C) Largely stagnant
D) Regressing slightly due to increased focus on other areas
E) Getting significantly worse

In regards to the core game, the answer is B.

[Pelican]

I would say both A and B are true. There are some cool new things - like stunning animation (and probably online stuff for those who care) - while in the background tweaks are made to improve the gameplay and performance. The former are visible right away, whereas appreciating the latter requires playing out games and seasons and really exploring options within the game.

I don’t want to dive into the argument of whether only a flawless game should be offered, except to remind posters that “the perfect is the enemy of the good”. The issue to me is not whether a new version has any flaws or bugs. The issue is whether those flaws and bugs get fixed. In my experience, they do, and quickly.

My impression is that one of the greatest enemies of programmers is the “doctrine of unintended consequences”. If you fix or enhance one aspect of the game by changing the programming, that could trigger an unanticipated issue with a seemingly unrelated part of the game engine. That has to be infuriating. Lots of testing may not reveal the issue, and then our intrepid community finds it. Again, flaws are addressed and repaired, without (I hope) affecting anything else adversely.

I also don’t want to fall into the debate about whether $40 bucks for a computer game is a lot of money. Ultimately it depends on one’s financial circumstances and spending habits and expectations. We come to that party from different places. I’m convinced the value is there at that price point. It fulfills my expectations, thus far, each year, and I can afford it. YMMV.

[jcard]

Originally Posted by Pelican

I would say both A and B are true. There are some cool new things - like stunning animation (and probably online stuff for those who care) - while in the background tweaks are made to improve the gameplay and performance. The former are visible right away, whereas appreciating the latter requires playing out games and seasons and really exploring options within the game.

I don’t want to dive into the argument of whether only a flawless game should be offered, except to remind posters that “the perfect is the enemy of the good”. The issue to me is not whether a new version has any flaws or bugs. The issue is whether those flaws and bugs get fixed. In my experience, they do, and quickly.

My impression is that one of the greatest enemies of programmers is the “doctrine of unintended consequences”. If you fix or enhance one aspect of the game by changing the programming, that could trigger an unanticipated issue with a seemingly unrelated part of the game engine. That has to be infuriating. Lots of testing may not reveal the issue, and then our intrepid community finds it. Again, flaws are addressed and repaired, without (I hope) affecting anything else adversely.

I also don’t want to fall into the debate about whether $40 bucks for a computer game is a lot of money. Ultimately it depends on one’s financial circumstances and spending habits and expectations. We come to that party from different places. I’m convinced the value is there at that price point. It fulfills my expectations, thus far, each year, and I can afford it. YMMV.

This is a straw man argument. Show me where anyone in this thread demanded a “flawless” product.

All of the lengthy “voice of reason” posts and citations of pseudo-erudite maxims are pointless if alternative perspectives are either willfully misrepresented or unintentionally miscomprehended.

[HonusWagner]

There are too many features stagnating to be able to seriously claim the game is improving. The game obviously did not improve according to its vision and ambitions. And it didn't because the money didn't show up and there's really nothing to ponder, it's that simple. They added a bunch of promising features and didn't get the backing and so it wasn't really developed. What we have here is basically a very good prototype. To add to that, some recent and well known licensing issues rolled back even on that.

Now, if you want to watch the game replay last season or a bunch of seasons then you are all set. Am sure it does that very well. But if you want to go deep into the management and coaching angle, then it's a prototype.

Will also add that it likely does online leagues very well, too, in no small part because there one can manage but without game algorithms. But even so, am not aware of any ground-breaking improvements in replays or online, other than of course P2W. P2W is the one obvious improvement on the game.

And all that is to not overlook the community developers / modders who continue to make and curate substantial additions each year.

[Brad K]

Of course OOTP isn't getting better. That's because baseball is getting worse. It's hard to run uphill.

[Irrelevant Dude]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

There are too many features stagnating to be able to seriously claim the game is improving. The game obviously did not improve according to its vision and ambitions. And it didn't because the money didn't show up and there's really nothing to ponder, it's that simple. They added a bunch of promising features and didn't get the backing and so it wasn't really developed.

I obviously can't speak to your claim on the features themselves, since I am the one who started this topic and I don't have any recent experience with the game. The sad reality though is that there isn't much growth potential with the core management portion of the game. That is what brought most of us here many years ago, but how many more people like us are out there who are yet to be won over? How many people in their teens, 20's, and even 30's are looking to buy a traditional baseball simulation in 2023? The core game itself may have stagnated, but its audience has likely stagnated as well. Looking beyond OOTP, franchise modes get very little attention in sports gaming in general because that isn't where companies make their money. If the parent company of OOTPD is pushing for more profits, there is really only one place to go. I accept that there is probably no getting around Perfect Team being the primary focus going forward, but I guess I just hope that we continue to get small incremental improvements to the core management game without it simply becoming a forgotten relic of the game's past.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by Irrelevant Dude

I obviously can't speak to your claim on the features themselves, since I am the one who started this topic and I don't have any recent experience with the game. The sad reality though is that there isn't much growth potential with the core management portion of the game. That is what brought most of us here many years ago, but how many more people like us are out there who are yet to be won over? How many people in their teens, 20's, and even 30's are looking to buy a traditional baseball simulation in 2023? The core game itself may have stagnated, but its audience has likely stagnated as well. Looking beyond OOTP, franchise modes get very little attention in sports gaming in general because that isn't where companies make their money. If the parent company of OOTPD is pushing for more profits, there is really only one place to go. I accept that there is probably no getting around Perfect Team being the primary focus going forward, but I guess I just hope that we continue to get small incremental improvements to the core management game without it simply becoming a forgotten relic of the game's past.

I would argue that its objectively true that at minimum we are getting those small incremental improvements to the core management game.

In 24 alone we got two new options for trades (Hard mode, and Reputation), as well as an overhauled IAFA system that is both much much more in-depth as well as more realistic.

[HonusWagner]

Originally Posted by Irrelevant Dude

I obviously can't speak to your claim on the features themselves, since I am the one who started this topic and I don't have any recent experience with the game. The sad reality though is that there isn't much growth potential with the core management portion of the game.

There are management and sports management games being made so I think there is a market, whether there is one for baseball is another question. However, those with money to spend many years ago voted against sufficient market potential, and so they would seem to support your claim. P2W is going to be far more lucrative and so is clearly the biggest example of improvement, though not for everyone.