pre-1901 MLB with historical transactions, etc.

[AESP_pres]

TBH we can blame them for this since it was working relatively fine before this year version... there was no reasons to merge the major league and minor league databases. What's the point of meddling with what is fine if it isn't to fix the real structural problem?

[thehef]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

I've tried every which way i can think of to get the 1884 Richmond Virginias to import but so far nothing doing.

I ran two quick tests:

1) Just an out-of-the-box game starting with the 1884 season. Of course Richmond didn't appear in the league because they didn't make the cut in OOTP's non-historical pre-1901 minors. However, all players who played on the 1884 Virginians were in the game, as free agents.

2. I modified the teams.csv file, replacing the 1884 Washington Nationals with the 1884 Richmond club. I changed all team id fields to "RIC" except for franchID, which I left as MIN... I then started a game in 1883 (this is because OOTP does not read from the teams.csv file at creation; it only reads this file for subsequent seasons), enabled historical transactions (as AESP_pres instructs), and then I had the game sim to the 1884 preseason... The Richmond team appeared, and in addition to the players who carried over from the 1883 Washington team (because of the franchID; if I had changed the franchID, those '83 Washington players would've become free agents), three players who actually played on the '84 Virginians - Larkin, Morgan, and Schenk - also appeared on the Virginians' roster. The reason these three appear on the roster is because the historical txns file includes a 1/1/1884 "free agent signing" entry for them.

All '84 Richmond players were in the game, with most of them being FA's. Mike Mansell was with Pittsburgh for 1883, and since there is no hist txn in the database to send him to Richmond, he's on Pitt's roster for '84. Similar story for Walt Goldsby (St Louis).

What I could not find is someone who was a 1884 rookie and who imported to Richmond (that team actually had a bunch of 1st year players). In revisiting this...

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

The rookie players also go with the team they are suppose to go to (except that you will have to move some manually). Never had a team runs out of players in the simulations I do...

... I'm assuming that historical teams that are also in OOTP's pre-1901 setup are the ones that have rookies import to the team they are supposed to, and that the teams that are not in OOTP's pre-1901 setup (like Richmond) are the ones that don't...

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by thehef

I ran two quick tests:

1) Just an out-of-the-box game starting with the 1884 season. Of course Richmond didn't appear in the league because they didn't make the cut in OOTP's non-historical pre-1901 minors. However, all players who played on the 1884 Virginians were in the game, as free agents.

2. I modified the teams.csv file, replacing the 1884 Washington Nationals with the 1884 Richmond club. I changed all team id fields to "RIC" except for franchID, which I left as MIN... I then started a game in 1883 (this is because OOTP does not read from the teams.csv file at creation; it only reads this file for subsequent seasons), enabled historical transactions (as AESP_pres instructs), and then I had the game sim to the 1884 preseason... The Richmond team appeared, and in addition to the players who carried over from the 1883 Washington team (because of the franchID; if I had changed the franchID, those '83 Washington players would've become free agents), three players who actually played on the '84 Virginians - Larkin, Morgan, and Schenk - also appeared on the Virginians' roster. These reason these three appear on the roster is because the historical txns file includes a 1/1/1884 "free agent signing" entry for them.

All '84 Richmond players were in the game, with most of them being FA's. Mike Mansell was with Pittsburgh for 1883, and since there is no hist txn in the database to send him to Richmond, he's on Pitt's roster for '84. Similar story for Walt Goldsby (St Louis).

What I could not find is someone who was a 1884 rookie and who imported to Richmond (that team actually had a bunch of 1st year players). In revisiting this...



... I'm assuming that historical teams that are also in OOTP's pre-1901 setup are the ones that have rookies import to the team they are supposed to, and that the teams that are not in OOTP's pre-1901 setup (like Richmond) are the ones that don't...

Check Jake Aydelott and Marshall Quinton.
They show up but are missing their rookie years in their real life stats tab
due to the missing teams.
Anyway it still does not solve the problem of the inaccurate historical teams. That just renames a historical team and replaces it with a missing historical team.
The league is still short of teams it had in 84.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Check Jake Aydelott and Marshall Quinton.
They show up but are missing their rookie years in their real life stats tab
due to the missing teams.

In test #1, Quinton is there but Aydelott is not. In test #2, both are there. Aydelott has no RL stats for 1884. Quinton has his 1884 RL Eastern League stats, but not his RL major league stats.

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Anyway it still does not solve the problem of the inaccurate historical teams. That just renames a historical team and replaces it with a missing historical team.
The league is still short of teams it had in 84.

Yeah. I get your frustration. I know the powers that be have said that the reason OOTP uses un-historical pre-1901 majors is (something along the lines of) "OOTP does not handle the numerous leagues and teams folding, starting up, etc." I don't doubt that there are issues that would need to be overcome, but the reality is that OOTP handles those much-more-numerous leagues and teams changes with the minors just fine; I dare say flawlessly. I think they try to do their best at maintaining the historical product, but it's a lower-priority than other things, and then the subset of "1800's historical" is even lower priority, unfortunately so, for those who really dig that era...

My suggestion would be to keep pushing, keep asking for little tweaks to make 1800's ball a little easier.

From my perspective, I'd simply like to see OOTP "break" the connection to / restriction of having a certain number of teams in two major leagues. Let us configure the teams.csv file any way we want, just like we can with the minors_teams.csv file. And then OOTP can keep in place that the initial year doesn't read from the teams.csv file. IOW, no changes to the initial year, but at least after that first year we can have realistic majors.

Just gotta keep on pushin'...

[BaseballMan]

It would help a lot if they put the original teams back in.
I created a league in 1891 and in 1892.
Neither had stats for King Kelly's stint with Cincinnati in 1891.
He played 82 games for them. How many other players have stats missing?
Do these effect their ratings or the league totals.
How bout ballparks for teams that were added?
Its just a disaster.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

It would help a lot if they put the original teams back in.
I created a league in 1891 and in 1892.
Neither had stats for King Kelly's stint with Cincinnati in 1891.
He played 82 games for them. How many other players have stats missing?
Do these effect their ratings or the league totals.
How bout ballparks for teams that were added?
Its just a disaster.

My hunch is that the missing stats are a result of the database merge, and that it will be addressed. Do you know if this has been reported as a bug? I know that Lukas was pretty diligent in making sure the stats for minor leaguers were correct (post-merge), so I'm sure he'd want to make sure that any missing stats for pre1901 major-leaguers are addressed, too.

That is a great question. I don't know the answer.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by thehef

My hunch is that the missing stats are a result of the database merge, and that it will be addressed. Do you know if this has been reported as a bug? I know that Lukas was pretty diligent in making sure the stats for minor leaguers were correct (post-merge), so I'm sure he'd want to make sure that any missing stats for pre1901 major-leaguers are addressed, too.

That is a great question. I don't know the answer.

i checked King Kelly's real stats in ootp23 and all teams he played for are there.
I looked at the real stats in ootp24 and the real team abbreviations are there in the stat line. Ootp23 had the fictional historical progression but we could edit the teams file to get the real teams.
So it kinda seems like the information is still there.
Did they assign unique numbers to each team and but not the missing teams.
So thats why they don't import?

[AESP_pres]

BaseballMan this is the teams with their players missing stat line ( I didn't create the UA and the PL in my simulation so I don't know for them)

1884: Toledo / Indianapolis / Richmond
1891: Cincinnati

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

BaseballMan this is the teams with their players missing stat line ( I didn't create the UA and the PL in my simulation so I don't know for them)

1884: Toledo / Indianapolis / Richmond
1891: Cincinnati

I think 1884 Columbus Buckeyes and the 1890 Toledo Maumees
are also missing.

[AESP_pres]

Columbus players have their stat line (the game put the team as Cleveland - CLV)
You're correct on Toledo (I forgot to check 1890 in my history)

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

Columbus players have their stat line (the game put the team as Cleveland - CLV)
You're correct on Toledo (I forgot to check 1890 in my history)

I think CLV corresponds with the Cleveland Blues.
If you compare the teams file from ootp23 to ootp24, the stats
for CLV match and also matches the real Cleveland Blues of 1884.

[BaseballMan]

I dont know what i did or if ootp change anything but now 1884 expansion
is working with the real league setup. The Richmond Virginias imported
with coorect players. Marshall Quinton showed up with Richmond in his real stats tab. However i still cant import the teams by themselves.
But hey i'll take this.

[AESP_pres]

I''d guess that they finally fix the database... since my game is in 1915 I can't check but that make sense to me.

If the players import with their missing stats line for 1884 (and I hope the other two seasons are fixed too) this is sure a big positive.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by AESP_pres

I''d guess that they finally fix the database...

Not really.
I just found out how to use the 23 database with 24.
I reinstalled ootp24 and then forgot what i did to get to work.
I edited the teams csv file.
At this point the teams would import for the next season but without the players.
So then i replaced the 24 historical database and stats files with the ones from 23 and found the correct players now imported to the historical expansion teams. They also had the correct history in the real stats tab.
Now there are some bad things.
It only works when using a converted ootp23 league.
You can create a league in 24 but will crash when going to the next season.
It doesnt work when importing individual historical teams.
Its not the perfect answer but it seems to work.
Its still using the 23 database but i would be using it anyway till the 24 ever gets the correct teams.
At least now i can play my historical league in 24 with the correct teams and players with their correct real history.

[WFIL73]

So basically just keep playing 22 or 23 when playing pre-1901. I wish pre-1901 would work automatically. But let's be honest, it's been a good decade now we ask for some sort of meaningful changes and it's either no change, or changes going backwards. I don't blame anyone, that's life. Myself? I play 19th century and do it all myself: Create/delete teams, conduct player transactions, hire/fire managers, create new leagues (yes, I do UA and PL), delete leagues. I, in my head, am the 19th century guru. I will give ahuge shoutout to whoever created the as-played schedules, manna from Heaven. I know everyone does it their own way and that's fine. I do wish OOTP would help out, but at this point, I don't need it, nor do I really want it since I got it down cold how to play it.