Ticket Price Changes in OOTP 24 and Their Impact on Online Leagues

[tailgtr24]

I originally posted this topic as a bug in the technical support section, but a few other users suggested I post the topic here after a response from OOTP that was the first and only time I've seen them address the topic.


https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...02#post5065202


I would appreciate further discussion on this topic from our community. In my opinion, the reality is that there is a disparity in ticket prices in MLB and most professional sports. Leagues have instituted policies to address this, and in MLB those are the Luxury Tax and Revenue Sharing. If OOTP believes there was an issue with attendance, it would seem like rather than setting a static calculation based on league wide ticket prices that adjustments to Luxury Tax and Revenue sharing would be more effective. Other changes to attendance that would be more effective would include tying things like winning to fan interest, and ultimately attendance.


Please share your other ideas on better ways to tie attendance to other than a league wide avg.



What are leagues doing (if anything) to address this issue?

[tailgtr24]

Here is the initial text and images from my original post.


I've attached a screenshot of my accounting tab from an online league that I have been in for many years.



The only change between 2067 and 2068 for my team was the switch to OOTP 24 and the unexplained (but acknowledged) change to ticket prices. I have seen ootp developers acknowledge a change occurred but have not explained what it is or why the change was made in the first place. These type of changes impact teams and online leagues. From what I have gathered with these exchanges with the OOTP developers, if a team has a ticket price that is deemed "too high" compared to the rest of the league then their attendance will drastically be reduced.



My fan interest is actually higher in 2068, and for the 2067 season I averaged over $75 per ticket. For 2068, I lowered my ticket price from the average amount, and was stunned to see after season tickets locked that I was projected to sell 39.4% less than the previous year. I have been able to identify a dollar amount that has increased my avg attendance to "normal" levels, however that amount is at $59 per ticket vs the avg of over $75 the previous season.


Why is this a problem? Look at my revenue from 2067 at $291,305,305 and compare to the projected revenue for 2068 of $189,449,692. Yes, for 2068 it does not project any playoff revenue, but if we remove the playoff revenue the point is still the same. With playoff revenue removed, the 2067 regular season revenue was $251,458,661. I understand that team revenues fluctuate, but dropping over $101 mil in one season at no fault of that team is a problem.



Most teams in leagues will not see this as an issue for their individual team because it only seems to be impacting the teams that were on the top end of avg ticket prices. I've attached from Stats Lab the data from 2067 and 2068. Some teams have noticed the change and have tried to adjust their ticket prices to somewhat salvage, but the impact is clear. If the intent was take revenue away from top teams, then where is the money going? Increases to revenue sharing and luxury tax would seem to be better adjustments to address that issue.


Now, teams that have effectively planned and increased revenue over many years are now trying to figure out how to balance their budgets and cut players. The other teams in the league didn't get revenue increases, so they cannot even take those players and their contracts. I've personally grown my franchise (Cincinnati) into one of the highest budgets in the league. I have contracts, and team building in the future based on revenue projected on a ticket price that has now drastically changed.



Please explain the rationale in making this change to ticket prices and their impact on revenue. What are teams impacted by this change expected to do? Can this please be revisited by the developers and discussed again?

[Rain King]

Average ticket prices in MLB for 2023.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...e-mlb-by-team/

That averages to $114 which makes the range for the relative prices range from .61 to 1.83 (i.e. the Dodgers ticket prices were 1.83 times higher than the league average).

What is the average ticket price in your league (in the settings)? I looked through the posts and couldn't find that information.

Based on Matt's response, it seems it was determined that there was an exploit/cheese of the finances which they have closed up. While unfortunate for those that have been able to take advantage of it I don't think you can expect OOTP to choose not to improve finances because online leagues have members exposing the cracks.

I DO think these type of changes need to be communicated much better so that everyone can choose how to adjust to the new parameters up front.

[tailgtr24]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Average ticket prices in MLB for 2023.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...e-mlb-by-team/

That averages to $114 which makes the range for the relative prices range from .61 to 1.83 (i.e. the Dodgers ticket prices were 1.83 times higher than the league average).

What is the average ticket price in your league (in the settings)? I looked through the posts and couldn't find that information.

Based on Matt's response, it seems it was determined that there was an exploit/cheese of the finances which they have closed up. While unfortunate for those that have been able to take advantage of it I don't think you can expect OOTP to choose not to improve finances because online leagues have members exposing the cracks.

I DO think these type of changes need to be communicated much better so that everyone can choose how to adjust to the new parameters up front.

Whatever the current version formula is, it doesn't reflect the real life reality on ticket prices. The information you provided is similar to what I've seen. It appears OOTP wants there do be a max amount around the average somewhere between the $10-$15 range.



I will caveat the next bit of info with that there is one team in my league that has kept their ticket price at $80 per ticket and their attendance has dropped significantly. In my current league and the previous version before we switched to OOTP 24, my ticket price was $75.19. The average in the league was $40.66. In 2068 my avg ticket price dropped to $61.02 and the league average dropped to $39.69. In 2069, my avg ticket price dropped to $56.94 and the league average dropped to $39.34. In 2070, my ticket price dropped to $49 and the league average dropped to $38.65. I have maintained around 3,000,000 fans at my park during this same period.

[LansdowneSt]

I'm sure it was tough for you (but equally for all, market sizes depending) to absorb long-term contracts previously signed or meet FA expectations based on salaries achieved before the adjustment, but the adjustment to the elasticity of ticket prices and customer demand is actually bringing you closer to reality imo.

Here are historic ticket prices: http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseb...cketprices.htm

I highlighted CIN versus the MLB average too. I also calculated the percent variance to the MLB average. Some years didn't have data and the percentage is obviously showing CBA and market changes affecting teams other than Cincy but overall, if your sim in 2070 has you as a great CIN team charging nearly 27% over the average MLB ticket price - that's historically fantastic. It also puts the 85% over the MLB average (in Cincinnati!) seems outrageous for that city/market - even for the Big Red Machine Redux.

[tailgtr24]

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

I'm sure it was tough for you (but equally for all, market sizes depending) to absorb long-term contracts previously signed or meet FA expectations based on salaries achieved before the adjustment, but the adjustment to the elasticity of ticket prices and customer demand is actually bringing you closer to reality imo.

Here are historic ticket prices: http://roadsidephotos.sabr.org/baseb...cketprices.htm

I highlighted CIN versus the MLB average too. I also calculated the percent variance to the MLB average. Some years didn't have data and the percentage is obviously showing CBA and market changes affecting teams other than Cincy but overall, if your sim in 2070 has you as a great CIN team charging nearly 27% over the average MLB ticket price - that's historically fantastic. It also puts the 85% over the MLB average (in Cincinnati!) seems outrageous for that city/market - even for the Big Red Machine Redux.

I appreciate the analysis, but the problem is that the Cincinnati I am isn't the Cincinnati of today's reality. The market size is Big in game and Fan Loyalty Very Good.



It's not equal for all though because most teams aren't really feeling much of a difference, it's really just a few at the top. I think a lot of people haven't noticed because their individual situation hasn't changed, and in some cases it has improved. There also is the crowd that will argue anytime you can take away from the top revenue generating teams that it's good for overall parity in a league.


I just think if there is an issue of exploitation or teams being able to charge more than OOTP thinks they should, then why not tie in actual team performance to the ticket price calculation?

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by tailgtr24

In my current league and the previous version before we switched to OOTP 24, my ticket price was $75.19. The average in the league was $40.66. In 2068 my avg ticket price dropped to $61.02 and the league average dropped to $39.69. In 2069, my avg ticket price dropped to $56.94 and the league average dropped to $39.34. In 2070, my ticket price dropped to $49 and the league average dropped to $38.65. I have maintained around 3,000,000 fans at my park during this same period.

Where are the averages you are referring to here coming from? Are they the calculated average or are they the number that is set in your League's Financial page within League Setup under Attendance Settings?

[tailgtr24]

Originally Posted by Rain King

Where are the averages you are referring to here coming from? Are they the calculated average or are they the number that is set in your League's Financial page within League Setup under Attendance Settings?

Calculated League Averages from statslab. The league settings haven't been changed from version to version.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by tailgtr24

Calculated League Averages from statslab. The league settings haven't been changed from version to version.

So, those are probably at the default $30? This is an important number to know as the game is reacting to your ticket prices in relation to that setting...not the actual average of your league.

$75 would be 2.5 times what OOTP sees as the league average if it is using $30....which is significantly higher the MLB range I shared above.

Perhaps a solution for your league would be to increase that average price within your settings to something that is closer to your actual league average as an adjustment to this change.

[tailgtr24]

Originally Posted by Rain King

So, those are probably at the default $30? This is an important number to know as the game is reacting to your ticket prices in relation to that setting...not the actual average of your league.

$75 would be 2.5 times what OOTP sees as the league average if it is using $30....which is significantly higher the MLB range I shared above.

Perhaps a solution for your league would be to increase that average price within your settings to something that is closer to your actual league average as an adjustment to this change.

Thank you, I think ultimately that is one of the possible adjustments. It's just a slippery slope once you start making changes, and I know some people are against messing with the internal settings too much.

Doesn't that prove that what OOTP did change wise doesn't reflect actual MLB ticket pricing? The reason why that is an issue is that contract demands, arbitration estimates, etc. are all being based on the modern game.



The Commissioner of my league said it was okay for me to post this. Our league is set at $40 for that setting. I think that's helpful because it shows that the range OOTP is using is different than what the reality is in MLB. It also shows that the way attendance is calculated is not tied into winning.

Also of note, look at a team like Washington and compare to Cincinnati. Both have big markets, similar fan loyalty, and 100 fan interest. Washington has $50 per ticket, and Cincinnati at $49. Why is there such a difference in % full?

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by tailgtr24

Thank you, I think ultimately that is one of the possible adjustments. It's just a slippery slope once you start making changes, and I know some people are against messing with the internal settings too much.

Doesn't that prove that what OOTP did change wise doesn't reflect actual MLB ticket pricing? The reason why that is an issue is that contract demands, arbitration estimates, etc. are all being based on the modern game.

The Commissioner of my league said it was okay for me to post this. Our league is set at $40 for that setting. I think that's helpful because it shows that the range OOTP is using is different than what the reality is in MLB.

OOTP doesn't have you track all of organizational expenses that must be payed in real life. Ticket Pricing is set up in the game to cover the expenses the game has you control.

It also shows that the way attendance is calculated is not tied into winning.

Attendance is not completely tied to winning. If it were, the situation for Tampa Bay would be much different.

There are many factors and the game tries to capture all of that with Fan Interest, Fan Loyalty, and Market Size.

Also of note, look at a team like Washington and compare to Cincinnati. Both have big markets, similar fan loyalty, and 100 fan interest. Washington has $50 per ticket, and Cincinnati at $49. Why is there such a difference in % full?

This is hard to say with just the information provided. Has Cincinnati been adjusting their ticket prices? Was that number different during the off-season period where Season Tickets are sold? How about Washington?

Also, it appears you are what, maybe a week into your season? That is a very small sample size. I think things like opponent quality, week days vs. weekends, weather, etc. can also affect attendance...stuff that generally evens out over a season but not over a week.

[tailgtr24]

Originally Posted by Rain King

OOTP doesn't have you track all of organizational expenses that must be payed in real life. Ticket Pricing is set up in the game to cover the expenses the game has you control.




Attendance is not completely tied to winning. If it were, the situation for Tampa Bay would be much different.

There are many factors and the game tries to capture all of that with Fan Interest, Fan Loyalty, and Market Size.



This is hard to say with just the information provided. Has Cincinnati been adjusting their ticket prices? Was that number different during the off-season period where Season Tickets are sold? How about Washington?

Also, it appears you are what, maybe a week into your season? That is a very small sample size. I think things like opponent quality, week days vs. weekends, weather, etc. can also affect attendance...stuff that generally evens out over a season but not over a week.

Small sample size this season yes, but it's happened every season since we switched to ootp 24. This is the 3rd season for our league since the swithch.


The Rays are an outlier, and the issues with attendance there I would hope wouldn't be replicated in a baseball game.


I've shown the fan interest, market size, fan loyalty, etc. for my team.



I think a better discussion would be using the MLB data you provided, and calculating the range of ticket prices based on the $40 per ticket model. Using the information you provided, I think the range based on $40 would be $24.40 - $73.20.

Honestly, at this point I believe the more fruitful discussion is understanding the actual change and what the range really is now. I understand and appreciate a fog of war argument, but at the same time we are making decisions that have an impact on future seasons. From what I am seeing based on the most recent ticket prices in my league is a range from $18-$80, with the $80 team being an extreme outlier. Removing the $80 team, we have a range of $18-$54.

It appears that the ootp new ticket range is much tighter, even tighter than the MLB data. Is anyone else experiencing anything similar? Anything different?

[liberty-ca]

This is a fascinating conversation and I am reading it with great interest. May I ask if market size can change over time?

[tailgtr24]

Originally Posted by liberty-ca

This is a fascinating conversation and I am reading it with great interest. May I ask if market size can change over time?

Market size can change over time, however it does take quite some time to do. That's why on the screenshots I've shared that some teams markets are different than what they would be if you started a new game today.

[liberty-ca]

Thanks, glad to hear that! I've asked, because I started a fictional MLB in 1946, currently in 1968 with NYY and their market size is still Above Ave. Good to know.

[tailgtr24]

Hello again, I wanted to provide an update as we are currently in the first week of September of the 2070 season.


I've attached an updated Finances report with the Fans tab from Stats+.


One of the comments said the season sample size was too small to make any comments about this change (It wasn't, we already had two seasons of data before this one illustrating the issue), but we now have almost a full 2070 season.


In my last post, I stated "In 2070, my ticket price dropped to $49 and the league average dropped to $38.65". The September update shows that my ticket price is now $46 and the league wide average is now $37.02.



Of note, look at the difference between Washington at $60 per ticket and Cincinnati at $46. Both teams are nearly identical, with the exception that Washington has average fan loyalty while Cincinnati has very good. Both teams are winning their divisions and are the top 2 teams in the NL. Both are averaging around 90% full for attendance.


It's hard to understand how the game now decides which teams are the highest revenue producers. The Nationals have been one of the top franchises in our league, and should be at or near the top in revenue. I'm struggling to understand why the Reds aren't right up there with them. Winning, winning championships further more appear to not be worth much at all.

[Rain King]

Is there a significant difference in the number of Season Tickets that were sold by each franchise?