My biggest gameplay complaint: Double Play Failure

Mr. Marlin · 04-12-2023, 08:10 AM

OK, this has bothered me for a couple of versions now. The 6-4-3 double play is the fastest for the infield to turn because no one is out of position. It is exceedingly RARE for a 6-4-3 to be broken up by a sliding runner from 1st. In OOTP double plays fail over 70% of the time. The success rate of double plays in real life are far greater than OOTP credits. Particularly 6-4-3. The other combinations take longer to develop and are more prone to be beaten or broken up. 3-4-3, 4-6-3, and 5-4-3 (although that one is successful more often than not) allow more time for a speedy runner to do a "hard slide" at second.

Does the game logic take into account the speed of the runner? That has not been my observation so just asking. Or does it account for the position skill of the infielders? Does the combination itself even matter? Or is gameplay just weighted towards DP failure. I do think the speed of the batter reaching first does matter. That has been my observation at least.

This is not new to 24. It's been going on for a while now.

Sweed · 04-12-2023, 09:09 AM

In my last off season I prioritized upgrading my SS position. Too many times it seemed I wouldn't complete a DP and it would cost me. My old SS with 7 range and 6 DP moved to 3b. My new SS has 7-7-8 arm-8 DP ratings, my 2b has a 7 in DP and range, while my utility IF (probably start at 2b next year) is 8-7-8 arm-7 DP. DP's are "flowing" compared to my last season, and with everyone we turn my SS's lack of bat becomes less of a concern.

Other observations I've made in my "one pitch mode" style of play is many (most?) of these are broken up because the runner was "going", IE the AI loves to H&R to avoid DP's. I think others look wonky because of a limit on now many animations are available to show IF plays. IE the ball that was a little to slow to allow the DP, the slight mishandling of the ball by any of the infielders, etc.

I would bet Matt has stats from testing, at default with autocalc, that their results are in line with MLB. I base this on other discussions he's commented in on many type of stats, so I could be wrong. Hopefully he finds time to pop in and comment.

andyhdz · 04-12-2023, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Marlin

OK, this has bothered me for a couple of versions now. The 6-4-3 double play is the fastest for the infield to turn because no one is out of position. It is exceedingly RARE for a 6-4-3 to be broken up by a sliding runner from 1st. In OOTP double plays fail over 70% of the time. The success rate of double plays in real life are far greater than OOTP credits. Particularly 6-4-3. The other combinations take longer to develop and are more prone to be beaten or broken up. 3-4-3, 4-6-3, and 5-4-3 (although that one is successful more often than not) allow more time for a speedy runner to do a "hard slide" at second.

Does the game logic take into account the speed of the runner? That has not been my observation so just asking. Or does it account for the position skill of the infielders? Does the combination itself even matter? Or is gameplay just weighted towards DP failure. I do think the speed of the batter reaching first does matter. That has been my observation at least.

This is not new to 24. It's been going on for a while now.

It's especially frustrating when you see it play out and even though I know the animation just "describes" the result, when you see all that time they have to make the throw it feels worse. I'd be interested to see if the actual results are in line with real stats.

Pelican · 04-12-2023, 07:17 PM

First, I totally agree that he graphic is often a total disconnect from the play description. The infielder stands there with the ball, and the runner hasn’t even started sliding.

Second, with the “Utley Rule” runners are limited in sliding, and IF should have a better chance to complete the turn.

Third, are you holding the runner at first base? If not, he’s a lot closer to second.

Fourth, does your pitcher throw over to first? Not just to try and pick off, but keep the guy close.

Finally, is your defense set to double play depth? That should help, although in theory you’ll give up a few more hits in the holes.

The speed of the runner, and to a lesser extent the batter, will make a difference. A fast runner has a better chance at breaking up a DP. A fast batter can beat the return throw. But you know this.

Agree with the post on defensive ratings. Look particularly at your 2B and SS rating for turn double play. A modest rating there could be the culprit.

I don’t have the figures, but would disagree that breaking up a DP is “exceedingly rare”. It happens. I haven’t noticed an alarming frequency over various sims. But anecdotally agree that “player holding the ball” comes up way too frequently.

Matt Arnold · 04-13-2023, 06:22 AM

Sometimes this is simply a case where the text objects for "broken up by a sliding runner" triggers more often than "the fielder decided not to throw over to first for some other reason" due to something in the text engine.

Basically, when the play develops, the game engine will decide due to a number of factors to eat the ball at second and not throw to first. And then the text engine and 3d engine both have to "interpret" that in their own ways. Ideally we would be able to match things up a little better, maybe adding in more flags for like "bobbled the transfer" or "throw to 2nd was slightly off but not enough to make the play there" and stuff like that.

Mr. Marlin · 04-13-2023, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

Sometimes this is simply a case where the text objects for "broken up by a sliding runner" triggers more often than "the fielder decided not to throw over to first for some other reason" due to something in the text engine.

Basically, when the play develops, the game engine will decide due to a number of factors to eat the ball at second and not throw to first. And then the text engine and 3d engine both have to "interpret" that in their own ways. Ideally we would be able to match things up a little better, maybe adding in more flags for like "bobbled the transfer" or "throw to 2nd was slightly off but not enough to make the play there" and stuff like that.

Thanks Matt, that does make sense. Actually it's a credit to the game that sometimes you forget that it IS a computer games and has a finite number of text replies to describe a situation that can have a lot of nuances.

One thing I have noticed is the the infield is set to DP depth a successful DP turn is more likely. Anecdotally it's more than 50% from what I've watched.

Humboldt KA · 04-21-2024, 10:29 AM

People here may have a view on this: My MLB team turns about half as many DPs as the rest of MLB.

-My SS is good, my 2B vs. RHP good, the other fair.
-I do hold runners and use DP Depth when appropriate. I never Hit & Run and rarely Run & Hit.
-Compared to most other MLB teams, my lineups have fewer extremely fast runners and fewer extremely slow ones. I'm pretty sure that overall I'm close to the MLB average.

Such a large difference with so little--in the above factors mentioned in this thread anyway--to explain it makes we wonder what else people have noticed. Something about team strategy? .Other things?

04-12-2023, 08:10 AM	#1
Mr. Marlin All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 1,270	My biggest gameplay complaint: Double Play Failure OK, this has bothered me for a couple of versions now. The 6-4-3 double play is the fastest for the infield to turn because no one is out of position. It is exceedingly RARE for a 6-4-3 to be broken up by a sliding runner from 1st. In OOTP double plays fail over 70% of the time. The success rate of double plays in real life are far greater than OOTP credits. Particularly 6-4-3. The other combinations take longer to develop and are more prone to be beaten or broken up. 3-4-3, 4-6-3, and 5-4-3 (although that one is successful more often than not) allow more time for a speedy runner to do a "hard slide" at second. Does the game logic take into account the speed of the runner? That has not been my observation so just asking. Or does it account for the position skill of the infielders? Does the combination itself even matter? Or is gameplay just weighted towards DP failure. I do think the speed of the batter reaching first does matter. That has been my observation at least. This is not new to 24. It's been going on for a while now.

04-12-2023, 07:17 PM	#4
Pelican Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2021 Location: Wilmington, Delaware Posts: 2,792 Blog Entries: 1	First, I totally agree that he graphic is often a total disconnect from the play description. The infielder stands there with the ball, and the runner hasn’t even started sliding. Second, with the “Utley Rule” runners are limited in sliding, and IF should have a better chance to complete the turn. Third, are you holding the runner at first base? If not, he’s a lot closer to second. Fourth, does your pitcher throw over to first? Not just to try and pick off, but keep the guy close. Finally, is your defense set to double play depth? That should help, although in theory you’ll give up a few more hits in the holes. The speed of the runner, and to a lesser extent the batter, will make a difference. A fast runner has a better chance at breaking up a DP. A fast batter can beat the return throw. But you know this. Agree with the post on defensive ratings. Look particularly at your 2B and SS rating for turn double play. A modest rating there could be the culprit. I don’t have the figures, but would disagree that breaking up a DP is “exceedingly rare”. It happens. I haven’t noticed an alarming frequency over various sims. But anecdotally agree that “player holding the ball” comes up way too frequently. __________________ Pelican OOTP 2020-? ”Hard to believe, Harry.” Last edited by Pelican; 04-12-2023 at 07:21 PM.

04-12-2023, 09:09 AM	#2
Sweed Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Iowa Posts: 6,522	In my last off season I prioritized upgrading my SS position. Too many times it seemed I wouldn't complete a DP and it would cost me. My old SS with 7 range and 6 DP moved to 3b. My new SS has 7-7-8 arm-8 DP ratings, my 2b has a 7 in DP and range, while my utility IF (probably start at 2b next year) is 8-7-8 arm-7 DP. DP's are "flowing" compared to my last season, and with everyone we turn my SS's lack of bat becomes less of a concern. Other observations I've made in my "one pitch mode" style of play is many (most?) of these are broken up because the runner was "going", IE the AI loves to H&R to avoid DP's. I think others look wonky because of a limit on now many animations are available to show IF plays. IE the ball that was a little to slow to allow the DP, the slight mishandling of the ball by any of the infielders, etc. I would bet Matt has stats from testing, at default with autocalc, that their results are in line with MLB. I base this on other discussions he's commented in on many type of stats, so I could be wrong. Hopefully he finds time to pop in and comment.

04-13-2023, 06:22 AM	#5
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,463	Sometimes this is simply a case where the text objects for "broken up by a sliding runner" triggers more often than "the fielder decided not to throw over to first for some other reason" due to something in the text engine. Basically, when the play develops, the game engine will decide due to a number of factors to eat the ball at second and not throw to first. And then the text engine and 3d engine both have to "interpret" that in their own ways. Ideally we would be able to match things up a little better, maybe adding in more flags for like "bobbled the transfer" or "throw to 2nd was slightly off but not enough to make the play there" and stuff like that.

04-21-2024, 10:29 AM	#7
Humboldt KA Minors (Single A) Join Date: Jan 2024 Posts: 71	People here may have a view on this: My MLB team turns about half as many DPs as the rest of MLB. -My SS is good, my 2B vs. RHP good, the other fair. -I do hold runners and use DP Depth when appropriate. I never Hit & Run and rarely Run & Hit. -Compared to most other MLB teams, my lineups have fewer extremely fast runners and fewer extremely slow ones. I'm pretty sure that overall I'm close to the MLB average. Such a large difference with so little--in the above factors mentioned in this thread anyway--to explain it makes we wonder what else people have noticed. Something about team strategy? .Other things?