Making Negro League a Major League?

[luckymann]

The big point being missed here is that I doubt Josh would have stayed a catcher were he playing in the MLB. Same as when they realised how good a hitter Ruth was they got him to stop pitching, the management of whatever club(s) he was at would have quickly realised how much more sustainably productive Josh would be in front of the plate. Especially given he was no Biz Mackey, Roy Campanella or Quincy Trouppe behind the dish.

So it's not Ruth's career one should look at when trying to get an equivalency line on Josh, but rather Jimmie Foxx. A guy who was a 1B first and foremost but did a bit of backup catching right through his career and spot started in the OF on occasion.

My best estimate on Josh in this context and keeping in mind his premature death is about where XX sits. 500-600 range on a best-case scenario.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by luckymann

The big point being missed here is that I doubt Josh would have stayed a catcher were he playing in the MLB. Same as when they realised how good a hitter Ruth was they got him to stop pitching, the management of whatever club(s) he was at would have quickly realised how much more sustainably productive Josh would be in front of the plate. Especially given he was no Biz Mackey, Roy Campanella or Quincy Trouppe behind the dish.

So it's not Ruth's career one should look at when trying to get an equivalency line on Josh, but rather Jimmie Foxx. A guy who was a 1B first and foremost but did a bit of backup catching right through his career and spot started in the OF on occasion.

My best estimate on Josh in this context and keeping in mind his premature death is about where XX sits. 500-600 range on a best-case scenario.

You can assume that but what if Gibson ends up on a team that has Gehrig at 1b and no good catcher.
Are you gonna switch Gibson then.
If Gibson was primarily a catcher in the NL why would you assume an mlb team would change that?
Wouldn't the NL have done it?
My primary point is that we can't say which or if black or white players would have done better or worse.
There's too many other factors.
We just have the luxury of looking at all the players we know were great.
The teams back then didn't have that luxury.
Maybe they pass on Ty Cobb for Cool Papa Bell and Bell doesn't have the career as he did on the NL.
Maybe it's better or maybe it's not.
How can we say one group would do better than the other?

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

You can assume that but what if Gibson ends up on a team that has Gehrig at 1b and no good catcher.
Are you gonna switch Gibson then.
If Gibson was primarily a catcher in the NL why would you assume an mlb team would change that?
Wouldn't the NL have done it?
My primary point is that we can't say which or if black or white players would have done better or worse.
There's too many other factors.
We just have the luxury of looking at all the players we know were great.
The teams back then didn't have that luxury.
Maybe they pass on Ty Cobb for Cool Papa Bell and Bell doesn't have the career as he did on the NL.
Maybe it's better or maybe it's not.
How can we say one group would do better than the other?

You may be right, this is all only ever speculative.

I never try to figure whether NeLers would have done "better" or "worse" than the incumbent white MLBers, only at what sort of numbers I think they'd put up in the MLB if it was FULLY integrated.

To me, in this equation, that is all that matters.

G

[JerryShoe]

I don't see any group as being any better than any other group, I just hoped to use OOTP as the best tool available to possibly "see" how individuals may have performed had there been only one group.

[Pelican]

Enjoying this discussion. Of course we tend to focus on the greats, black and white; but the true genius of retroactively integrating the game is granular: devising "major league equivalent" ratings for every Negro League player for whom we have stats. If MLB stays at sixteen teams, with no color bar in the 1920's forward, there will be fewer marginal (white) MLB players with jobs.

Eliminating the color bar in OOTP triggers decisions that have to be made about the movement of players and the effect on teams and whole leagues. Do the Negro Leagues survive, without their top players? Are Negro League teams compensated by MLB teams who sign their players? Does MLB expand to accommodate the influx of talent? Or do the marginal white players end up in the minor leagues?

As an example, I am in the early stages of a sim where the Federal League survives, and the Pacific Coast League becomes a (fourth) major league. The color bar ends, and all thirty-two teams sign Negro League players, with compensation, but depleting those rosters. Without players, the Negro Leagues in this timeline seem likely to wither and die. The minor leagues grow to accommodate the thirty-two organizations. Not sure who will survive, when the Depression happens.

[Antonin]

Well, we know why the various Negro Leagues formed, and why they had such a hard time surviving, and why they withered away when integration finally, at long last, came to MLB.

It would bring a new dimension to the OOTP experience if barnstorming could be introduced to the game, even if only for the period when black baseball was at its peak. This would make it possible to simulate black baseball with finances, if anyone wants to do so. Most of the Negro League teams relied heavily on barnstorming to stay afloat, and some of those barnstorming games were against white teams. But the simpler option would probably be to have any Negro Leagues that existed in a certain year to be playable when you start a game in that year. The NNL, or the ECL, or the ANL, or the second NNL, etc. When you start a historical game in, say, 1934, you could choose MLB, or some minor league, or "Negro League," with the latter giving you a choice among whatever black leagues that existed in 1934. No Negro League game in OOTP is going to be completely realistic, given the fact that teams sometimes folded in mid-season, and players often jumped to other teams if they couldn't get paid where they were.

Still, the historical importance of these leagues and these players who endured horrible conditions just to play the game they loved so much, as much as any other American who ever played the game, should make their careers worthy of accurate simulation in OOTP whenever possible. We now have stats for many of these players, and we should be able to treat their careers with the respect and admiration they deserve. They really were amazing men. They played the game with grace and enthusiasm and joy. They provided hope and entertainment to millions of people who were not allowed their share of the American Dream.

I'm not holding my breath, though. I would imagine that not many OOTP buyers are interested in playing these teams. Fair enough. The company's priorities seem to be "Perfect Team" and 3D graphics, neither of which interest me even slightly.

[pholmer]

"Still, the historical importance of these leagues and these players who endured horrible conditions just to play the game they loved so much, as much as any other American who ever played the game, should make their careers worthy of accurate simulation in OOTP whenever possible. We now have stats for many of these players, and we should be able to treat their careers with the respect and admiration they deserve. They really were amazing men. They played the game with grace and enthusiasm and joy. They provided hope and entertainment to millions of people who were not allowed their share of the American Dream."

Antonin. I just read your comment and I think it is an eloquent and succinct tribute to all those who played in the Negro Leagues. Thank you for that. (Sorry, I don't know how to do the quote thing correctly.)

[pholmer]

thehef. Sorry it has taken me so long to respond, but the Negro Leagues CD only works on my old Mac Cube (circa2001) that was out of commission for a while. I will post the documents (pdf) and images (png) in a new post below.

[pholmer]

I am posting (or attempting to, we'll see) the documents and images from Negro Leagues CD. One document is an analysis of the 1953 Pittsburgh Courier poll which contains a lot of information about the players who were in the poll and those who were polled. Okay, here we go.

The first two images depict the first and second All-Star Negro Leagues Teams, composed of players from all eras of Negro League baseball. These teams were picked from a poll of sports writers, former NeL players, and others conducted by the Pittsburgh Courier newspaper in 1952. A detailed analysis of that poll is attached as well and it contains information about both the players in the poll and the people who were polled.

The third and fourth images come from a Discover Greatness project focused on Negro League players. Their methodology is not clear to me, but the Discover Greatness exhibit is now a part of the Yogi Berra Museum & Learning Center in Little Falls, New Jersey.

These images were on The Negro Leagues Dream Team CD, published around 2005.

[pholmer]

Here's a couple more images.

Negro Leagues Dream Team CD

Josh Gibson Info Card.png

Negro Leagues Dream Team

Oh, well, at least the first set of images came through.

[italyprof]

In OOTP26, you can now click the option to have Negro League players added to the draft individually, in both straight historical and random debut.

[pholmer]

I think I have this figured out now.
The Negro Leagues Dream Team CD



Josh Gibson Info Card

[italyprof]

When Martin Dihigo is a utility player, you know it's an all-time all-star team!

[pholmer]

I never thought of it that way, but you're right. Btw, did you check out my reply in the Rube Foster post?

[italyprof]

Originally Posted by pholmer

I never thought of it that way, but you're right. Btw, did you check out my reply in the Rube Foster post?

I'll look for it now.