"Retire according to history" does not work for career minor-leaguers

uruguru · 06-01-2024, 11:30 PM

Historical leagues with minor-leaguers end up with a huge amount of "worthless player" bloat because apparently players are not properly auto-retired by the "Retire According to History" option if they never played in the majors.

I'm guessing about 200 low-quality players are added to the list of active players every year that should be retired. Since most of these are young players, this creates a headache of well over a thousand players clogging out the game (free agent lists, for example) that should not be there.

twins_34 · 06-03-2024, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uruguru

Historical leagues with minor-leaguers end up with a huge amount of "worthless player" bloat because apparently players are not properly auto-retired by the "Retire According to History" option if they never played in the majors.

I'm guessing about 200 low-quality players are added to the list of active players every year that should be retired. Since most of these are young players, this creates a headache of well over a thousand players clogging out the game (free agent lists, for example) that should not be there.

Me and Matt worked on changing how players retire in the game and retiring by age over date of retirement, and maybe minors were overlooked. So I will bring this post to his attention. This was so that you didnt need to run the OOTP development engine while running recalc BUT to fix your game for now you could go in and turn development on and they will all probably start mass retiring, but I will see if we can get this fixed. probably just a simple fix.

Matt Arnold · 06-04-2024, 10:18 AM

What era and settings were you using?

We've identified some erroneous stat issues from some early year players which could impact players if you're playing in pre-1940s times. If you're seeing this in other setups, it would help to let us know what year you're playing in, and which players in question. Even just a few sample names might help track down if there's something in common.

uruguru · 06-05-2024, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

What era and settings were you using?

We've identified some erroneous stat issues from some early year players which could impact players if you're playing in pre-1940s times. If you're seeing this in other setups, it would help to let us know what year you're playing in, and which players in question. Even just a few sample names might help track down if there's something in common.

You can just start a historical game with full minors (I always start at 1962). Recalc on, development off. Retire according to history, but I don't have them skip seasons.

As soon as you start the off-season, you'll see a wave of retirements announced in the transaction log. Those players DO get retired.

But if you go to the league player list, sorted by overall rating (start at the lowest) and switch the "Real Life Stats" tab and start scrolling down, then it won't be long before you see players whose last professional season was 1962 and they didn't retire. The vast majority are low level minor-leaguers and there have to be at least 200 missed retirements every season.

I would be thrilled to upload a save so you can just advance one day and reproduce the problem because this is an incredibly tedious thing to try and fix by hand.

LansdowneSt · 06-05-2024, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uruguru

You can just start a historical game with full minors (I always start at 1962). Recalc on, development off. Retire according to history, but I don't have them skip seasons.

As soon as you start the off-season, you'll see a wave of retirements announced in the transaction log. Those players DO get retired.

But if you go to the league player list, sorted by overall rating (start at the lowest) and switch the "Real Life Stats" tab and start scrolling down, then it won't be long before you see players whose last professional season was 1962 and they didn't retire. The vast majority are low level minor-leaguers and there have to be at least 200 missed retirements every season.

I would be thrilled to upload a save so you can just advance one day and reproduce the problem because this is an incredibly tedious thing to try and fix by hand.

Can you just list several of the player's Historical Minors IDs for me? That's how they are best looked up in the db to see if the errant stat lines are causing it.

uruguru · 06-05-2024, 01:43 AM

ok, I just advanced a 1962 full minors season to the October off-season.

I then sorted the player list ascending by overall rating (starting at 20 on a 20-80 scale) and then filtered the list for pitchers only. Filtering by pitchers or batters makes it a lot easier to scroll through the "Real Life Stats" tab because then it retains the same context (career hitting or career pitching) for each player.

I just added the pitchers rated at 20 whose last season was 1962 in the default shortlist. This is only the pitchers rated at 20!

To give you an idea of the scope of the problem, this alone was 66 pitchers who were not retired. Most of the unretired players are in the 20-26 rated area, but there are some in the high 30s who do not get retired.

You can see that none of the players in the list have a historical ID. They only have a historical minors ID. Maybe that's part of the problem?

I will do whatever I can to help you guys track down the cause. I can send before & after saves if you'd like.

uruguru · 06-05-2024, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LansdowneSt

Can you just list several of the player's Historical Minors IDs for me? That's how they are best looked up in the db to see if the errant stat lines are causing it.

Sorry, I didn't see this post when I just made the one with the screenshot.

Ok, here are some:

albrig001wil
arneso001pau
auten-002rob
ball--001hom
bozich001joh
cernos001fra

LansdowneSt · 06-05-2024, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uruguru

Sorry, I didn't see this post when I just made the one with the screenshot.

Ok, here are some:

albrig001wil
arneso001pau
auten-002rob
ball--001hom
bozich001joh
cernos001fra

Thanks for this. None of these have errant batting, pitching or fielding stat lines that would extend them... so it's not that. The Final MiLB year field in the db is also correct. Doesn't look like a db issue but instead perhaps something related to the new RAH approach.

On the earlier question, career minor leaguers would only have a Historical Minors ID, so no issue there.

Matt Arnold · 06-05-2024, 06:49 AM

In my test leagues, those guys did retire correctly. Digging through, it does seem like a couple players did get missed in some places though.

My guess is that possibly it could be a case where if someone is assigned to a league that vanishes after the season (like the Alabama-Florida league in 1962), perhaps the players in that league get skipped. 1962 to 1963 there were a few leagues that shifted around like that, if that is the case that could account for a number of these cases.

uruguru · 06-05-2024, 12:06 PM

This is crazy because this, for me, has been a persistent problem in OOTP since I first noticed it in 24. I don't see how it could be related to changes made in 25. It has to be related to some difference in the league settings between my save and what you guys are testing.

With regards to leagues that vanishes, I was playing a team in the American Association in 1962 (which vanishes) and players on that roster retired normally.

Also, this problem continues in 1963. I just auto-simmed to the next offseason and, of the 66 pitchers, 27 retired after 1963 (a year late), and 39 are still active.

But now there is a whole new batch of minor-leaguers who should have retired after 1963 but are still active.

Just for clarity, I've attached my league history and stat settings in the hope that there is some odd interaction causing this that is not in the default settings.

I retire according to history, but I do not skip seasons.

I set MLB stats level to "High" and all of the minors to "Normal".

I always lock league total settings (to make cross-era comparisons valid) and I do not adjust league strategies when advancing to next season.

I have no idea what is going on but a little alarmed that you cannot reproduce it. I will double-check that the problem still occurs with all of the default settings.

uruguru · 06-05-2024, 01:57 PM

ok, I created a video of the exact sequence of events that cause this problem. In the process, I discovered that unchecking "Players Miss Seasons According to History" GREATLY exacerbates this problem, which explains the discrepancy between what you and I are seeing.

The default is to have this feature checked. My first sim had it checked, and the second sim had it unchecked (the way I play). In this video, you can clearly see the difference. Just skip past the boring sim parts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X3eTEZJkRE

06-01-2024, 11:30 PM	#1
uruguru All Star Starter Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 1,265	"Retire according to history" does not work for career minor-leaguers Historical leagues with minor-leaguers end up with a huge amount of "worthless player" bloat because apparently players are not properly auto-retired by the "Retire According to History" option if they never played in the majors. I'm guessing about 200 low-quality players are added to the list of active players every year that should be retired. Since most of these are young players, this creates a headache of well over a thousand players clogging out the game (free agent lists, for example) that should not be there.

06-05-2024, 01:43 AM	#6
uruguru All Star Starter Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 1,265	ok, I just advanced a 1962 full minors season to the October off-season. I then sorted the player list ascending by overall rating (starting at 20 on a 20-80 scale) and then filtered the list for pitchers only. Filtering by pitchers or batters makes it a lot easier to scroll through the "Real Life Stats" tab because then it retains the same context (career hitting or career pitching) for each player. I just added the pitchers rated at 20 whose last season was 1962 in the default shortlist. This is only the pitchers rated at 20! To give you an idea of the scope of the problem, this alone was 66 pitchers who were not retired. Most of the unretired players are in the 20-26 rated area, but there are some in the high 30s who do not get retired. You can see that none of the players in the list have a historical ID. They only have a historical minors ID. Maybe that's part of the problem? I will do whatever I can to help you guys track down the cause. I can send before & after saves if you'd like. Attached Images Last edited by uruguru; 06-05-2024 at 01:45 AM.

06-05-2024, 12:06 PM	#10
uruguru All Star Starter Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 1,265	This is crazy because this, for me, has been a persistent problem in OOTP since I first noticed it in 24. I don't see how it could be related to changes made in 25. It has to be related to some difference in the league settings between my save and what you guys are testing. With regards to leagues that vanishes, I was playing a team in the American Association in 1962 (which vanishes) and players on that roster retired normally. Also, this problem continues in 1963. I just auto-simmed to the next offseason and, of the 66 pitchers, 27 retired after 1963 (a year late), and 39 are still active. But now there is a whole new batch of minor-leaguers who should have retired after 1963 but are still active. Just for clarity, I've attached my league history and stat settings in the hope that there is some odd interaction causing this that is not in the default settings. I retire according to history, but I do not skip seasons. I set MLB stats level to "High" and all of the minors to "Normal". I always lock league total settings (to make cross-era comparisons valid) and I do not adjust league strategies when advancing to next season. I have no idea what is going on but a little alarmed that you cannot reproduce it. I will double-check that the problem still occurs with all of the default settings. Attached Images Last edited by uruguru; 06-05-2024 at 12:08 PM.

06-04-2024, 10:18 AM	#3
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,816	What era and settings were you using? We've identified some erroneous stat issues from some early year players which could impact players if you're playing in pre-1940s times. If you're seeing this in other setups, it would help to let us know what year you're playing in, and which players in question. Even just a few sample names might help track down if there's something in common.

06-05-2024, 06:49 AM	#9
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,816	In my test leagues, those guys did retire correctly. Digging through, it does seem like a couple players did get missed in some places though. My guess is that possibly it could be a case where if someone is assigned to a league that vanishes after the season (like the Alabama-Florida league in 1962), perhaps the players in that league get skipped. 1962 to 1963 there were a few leagues that shifted around like that, if that is the case that could account for a number of these cases.

06-05-2024, 01:57 PM	#11
uruguru All Star Starter Join Date: May 2022 Posts: 1,265	ok, I created a video of the exact sequence of events that cause this problem. In the process, I discovered that unchecking "Players Miss Seasons According to History" GREATLY exacerbates this problem, which explains the discrepancy between what you and I are seeing. The default is to have this feature checked. My first sim had it checked, and the second sim had it unchecked (the way I play). In this video, you can clearly see the difference. Just skip past the boring sim parts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7X3eTEZJkRE