Why are HOF metrics different than on Baseball-Reference.com?

textilemonster · 07-01-2024, 10:56 PM

I'll preface this by saying that I may be a little obsessed with the Hall of Fame process.

But when I look at the metrics for retired players--players who retired before I even started the game, so their stats shouldn't be affected by anything--a lot of players have their HOF metrics off from their metrics on Baseball-Reference.com.
For example, Joe Mauer has a 47 JAWS score in real life but a 42.1 score in game; 43 Gray Ink in real life but 42 in game; 41 Standards in real life but 51 in game; and a Monitor score of 92 in real life but just 79 in game.

Some other things from just comparing the leaderboards for these stats:
Rogers Hornsby has a 91 Black Ink score instead of a 125 score. Lou Gehrig has a 79 Black Ink score instead of a 75 score.
Stan Musial's Monitor score drops from 452 to 382, making him third all-time instead of first.
Etc.

What's the dealio?

Brad K · 07-03-2024, 02:12 PM

I'd guess that the HOF numbers in OOTP are based on the player's performance in OOTP, not his performance real life.

textilemonster · 07-03-2024, 02:39 PM

That would make sense, except like I said these players were already retired when I started the game and their stats are the same as in real life (as far as I can tell).

Although it would make some sense that things like playoff appearances wouldn't factor into the HOF Monitor stuff (plus I think Bill James came out with a revised Monitor a few years ago and I don't know if BR uses old or new, or if OOTP uses old or new...)

Hmm. I hadn't thought of, like, comparative stats (or whatever you'd call them). Rogers Hornsby led the league in hits 4 times. But, despite the same hit totals, he's only getting credited with 2 times in OOTP.

...The two times he's not credited (as in, the stat is red in his stats page) are the two times someone in the AL had more hits than him...

OH MY GOSH, DOES OOTP NOT RECOGNIZE THAT THE AL AND NL ARE SEPARATE LEAGUES?! THAT WOULD AFFECT SO FRIGGIN' MUCH!

Brad K · 07-03-2024, 04:30 PM

I read too quickly and missed that these are players who retired before your game started.

Yea, the NL/AL not being separate leagues but rather sub leagues jolts me.

textilemonster · 07-03-2024, 09:40 PM

OK, now I'm REALLY confused.
I noticed that Bo Bichette is credited with leading the league in hits in 2022 (by which I mean, it's in red), even though Freddie Freeman had more hits and led the majors. Spot-checking backwards, I couldn't find any other instances than Rogers Hornsby where someone led the league (but not the majors) and was NOT credited. (1911--Doc Miller led the NL in hits but was 6th overall, but he's got his hit total in red that year.)
CRAZIER, those two years Hornsby led the NL in hits but isn't credited? The game seems to credit Eddie Collins and Jack Tobin, each of whom had more hits than Hornsby and were 2nd-place overall. But as Doc Miller shows, you can be SIXTH overall and the game gives you credit for leading your league.
WHAT'S GOING ON?! XD

Edit: Looked at the statistical leaders page under the MLB page, selected 1920. George Sisler (Browns) is the leader in hits when leagues are combined, but Eddie Collins (White Sox) and Rogers Hornsby (Cardinals) are leaders of the AL and NL, respectively? Yet Sisler and Collins get credits (red ink) while Hornsby gets none. :P (In fact, ALL of George Sisler's appearances on the leader boards appear to disappear when selecting American League, so at least it's consistent. Would love verification that this happens in other people's games, too.)

textilemonster · 07-03-2024, 11:14 PM

I'd been starting a New Standard Game. I just started a New Historical Game (most recent season) and the leaderboard credits seem to be correct now--Hornsby gets his hits title back, and Sisler is there under AL (with an Oriole cap now--before he'd had a Braves cap, which was the last team he played for in his career).
So it looks like it's only an issue with New Standard Game somehow???

But Joe Mauer's metrics are still low, especially Monitor. :/

07-01-2024, 10:56 PM	#1
textilemonster Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2024 Posts: 111	Why are HOF metrics different than on Baseball-Reference.com? I'll preface this by saying that I may be a little obsessed with the Hall of Fame process. But when I look at the metrics for retired players--players who retired before I even started the game, so their stats shouldn't be affected by anything--a lot of players have their HOF metrics off from their metrics on Baseball-Reference.com. For example, Joe Mauer has a 47 JAWS score in real life but a 42.1 score in game; 43 Gray Ink in real life but 42 in game; 41 Standards in real life but 51 in game; and a Monitor score of 92 in real life but just 79 in game. Some other things from just comparing the leaderboards for these stats: Rogers Hornsby has a 91 Black Ink score instead of a 125 score. Lou Gehrig has a 79 Black Ink score instead of a 75 score. Stan Musial's Monitor score drops from 452 to 382, making him third all-time instead of first. Etc. What's the dealio?

07-03-2024, 02:12 PM	#2
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,290	I'd guess that the HOF numbers in OOTP are based on the player's performance in OOTP, not his performance real life. __________________ Pirates Play Moneyball 1951 to 2008 46,000 views and counting!... Wow, up to 47,000, thank you. Wow, I hadn't checked for weeks. Oct 9 2024 its 79,561. Why do people use different players, different lineups, different strategy, development, talent change randomness, and the development lab, but judge the game on whether it produces historical statistics?

07-03-2024, 02:39 PM	#3
textilemonster Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2024 Posts: 111	That would make sense, except like I said these players were already retired when I started the game and their stats are the same as in real life (as far as I can tell). Although it would make some sense that things like playoff appearances wouldn't factor into the HOF Monitor stuff (plus I think Bill James came out with a revised Monitor a few years ago and I don't know if BR uses old or new, or if OOTP uses old or new...) Hmm. I hadn't thought of, like, comparative stats (or whatever you'd call them). Rogers Hornsby led the league in hits 4 times. But, despite the same hit totals, he's only getting credited with 2 times in OOTP. ...The two times he's not credited (as in, the stat is red in his stats page) are the two times someone in the AL had more hits than him... OH MY GOSH, DOES OOTP NOT RECOGNIZE THAT THE AL AND NL ARE SEPARATE LEAGUES?! THAT WOULD AFFECT SO FRIGGIN' MUCH! Last edited by textilemonster; 07-03-2024 at 03:04 PM.

07-03-2024, 04:30 PM	#4
Brad K Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2016 Location: St Petersburg Florida USA Posts: 6,290	I read too quickly and missed that these are players who retired before your game started. Yea, the NL/AL not being separate leagues but rather sub leagues jolts me. __________________ Pirates Play Moneyball 1951 to 2008 46,000 views and counting!... Wow, up to 47,000, thank you. Wow, I hadn't checked for weeks. Oct 9 2024 its 79,561. Why do people use different players, different lineups, different strategy, development, talent change randomness, and the development lab, but judge the game on whether it produces historical statistics?

07-03-2024, 09:40 PM	#5
textilemonster Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2024 Posts: 111	OK, now I'm REALLY confused. I noticed that Bo Bichette is credited with leading the league in hits in 2022 (by which I mean, it's in red), even though Freddie Freeman had more hits and led the majors. Spot-checking backwards, I couldn't find any other instances than Rogers Hornsby where someone led the league (but not the majors) and was NOT credited. (1911--Doc Miller led the NL in hits but was 6th overall, but he's got his hit total in red that year.) CRAZIER, those two years Hornsby led the NL in hits but isn't credited? The game seems to credit Eddie Collins and Jack Tobin, each of whom had more hits than Hornsby and were 2nd-place overall. But as Doc Miller shows, you can be SIXTH overall and the game gives you credit for leading your league. WHAT'S GOING ON?! XD Edit: Looked at the statistical leaders page under the MLB page, selected 1920. George Sisler (Browns) is the leader in hits when leagues are combined, but Eddie Collins (White Sox) and Rogers Hornsby (Cardinals) are leaders of the AL and NL, respectively? Yet Sisler and Collins get credits (red ink) while Hornsby gets none. :P (In fact, ALL of George Sisler's appearances on the leader boards appear to disappear when selecting American League, so at least it's consistent. Would love verification that this happens in other people's games, too.) Last edited by textilemonster; 07-03-2024 at 10:48 PM.

07-03-2024, 11:14 PM	#6
textilemonster Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jun 2024 Posts: 111	I'd been starting a New Standard Game. I just started a New Historical Game (most recent season) and the leaderboard credits seem to be correct now--Hornsby gets his hits title back, and Sisler is there under AL (with an Oriole cap now--before he'd had a Braves cap, which was the last team he played for in his career). So it looks like it's only an issue with New Standard Game somehow??? But Joe Mauer's metrics are still low, especially Monitor. :/ Last edited by textilemonster; 07-03-2024 at 11:20 PM.