Thread for player identification in team photos

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

The player fourth from left top row appears to be 5'11". Jesse Haines next to him on one side is listed at 6'0", Ferdie Schupp on the other side at 5'10". The player is about midway in height between them. Milt Stock is listed at 5'8" further evidence it is not him. Going through the roster and picking out those players listed at 5'11" Lew McCarty appears to be a possible match. Comparison of the player in the image and an example of McCarty with Brooklyn.

I agree that Lew McCarty is a good match.

[UKBaseballfan]

Baseball Reference reveals that Joe Sugden was the coach on the 1921 Cardinals. He is a possible match for the individual extreme right on the top row.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Baseball Reference reveals that Joe Sugden was the coach on the 1921 Cardinals. He is a possible match for the individual extreme right on the top row.

Joe Sugden was 50 years old in 1921; I think the person in street clothes in the photo is much younger. I've attached a photo of Sugden from 1926.

[UKBaseballfan]

The 1st. March 1921 edition of the St. Louis Post Dispatch. Details the names of 31 players who travelled to Spring Training on 28th Feb. In addition 2 other players are on their way. The information is extracted below. New names on that list include Sell (Epp), Ezzell (Homer), Wimer (Irvin) and James. There are 39 individuals shown in the image of which 37 are players.

To date players who I have suggested to be in the image but appear to have been absent during Spring Training include notably Jack Smith, another holdout, Herb Hunter and Howie Jones.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

The 1st. March 1921 edition of the St. Louis Post Dispatch. Details the names of 31 players who travelled to Spring Training on 28th Feb. In addition 2 other players are on their way. The information is extracted below. New names on that list include Sell (Epp), Ezzell (Homer), Wimer (Irvin) and James.

I have attached two images of Homer Ezzell (first and second from left), one of Lester "Epp" Sell (third from left), and one of Irvin "Jake" Wimer (far right).

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I have attached two images of Homer Ezzell (first and second from left), one of Lester "Epp" Sell (third from left), and one of Irvin "Jake" Wimer (far right).

Thank you for the images, in particular for Jake Wimer, of whom I had none previously.

I have removed identifications for Hunter, Jones and Smith from the image and replaced them with Sell, Ezzell and Wimer. In addition did a shuffle in respect of some of the other players.

I attach an older image of Sugden from 1912 as an alternate basis of comparison.

It would be most helpful if images could be found of Earl Brown, Frank Dodson, Paul Eiffert and Adolfo Pierotti. Dodson and Pierotti both played for Syracuse. Eiffert and Pierotti appear to have been together at Houston. Earl Brown spent 3 seasons with Albany. I wonder if the local papers for Houston, Syracuse or Albany have team photos of their local team.

[cinemaodyssey]

Here's Dodson with the Syracuse Stars. He was pictured in the 6/12/1921 edition of the Syracuse Herald. Second is another option for Wimer, pictured in the 5/14/1924 edition of the Syracuse Herald. Third is Ad Pierotti, pictured in the 8/11/1922 edition of The Galveston Daily News.

[cinemaodyssey]

Here's Paul Eiffert from the 4/29/1923 edition of The Tennessean. Second is Earl Brown who was pictured in the 12/5/1930 edition of The Charlotte Observer.
Hope those help!

[UKBaseballfan]

They help immensely, thank you so much.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

Joe Sugden was 50 years old in 1921; I think the person in street clothes in the photo is much younger.

I think Sugden is in the photo, but he is second from the right in the middle row, the player currently ID'ed as Lou North. North had a squarer jawline than Sugden, and he had been with the Cardinals in 1920, so there's no reason that he would be wearing a different uniform than the others. (Edited to add: Sugden is in the photo, but not in this spot. See post #384. At least I got North moved out of this position.)

Sugden / Middle Row 2nd from right / Lou North

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I think Sugden is in the photo, but he is second from the right in the middle row, the player currently ID'ed as Lou North. North had a squarer jawline than Sugden, and he had been with the Cardinals in 1920, so there's no reason that he would be wearing a different uniform than the others.

Sugden / Middle Row 2nd from right / Lou North

Thank you for the very interesting suggestion. To validate the proposal I have attempted to find an alternate location for North and secondly an alternate identification for the player top right. I believe I may have succeeded in the first element but not to date in the second.

I believe Lou North could be the player in position 20 third from left in the middle row. Below find the player in position 20 and then a colorized version of the North image.

[UKBaseballfan]

To place North in position 20 Paul Eiffert as a suggestion needed to be moved out.

Here is a comparison for the player in position 28 to Sugden and Eiffert and then the player in position 17 (top right)

Finally I have added an image of Tommy Madden, the Syracuse manager, who would be an option for player 17, updated from Tommy madden to the player also known as Bunny Madden.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Thank you for the very interesting suggestion. To validate the proposal I have attempted to find an alternate location for North and secondly an alternate identification for the player top right. I believe I may have succeeded in the first element but not to date in the second.

I believe Lou North could be the player in position 20 third from left in the middle row. Below find the player in position 20 and then a colorized version of the North image.

To place North in position 20 Paul Eiffert as a suggestion needed to be moved out.

Here is a comparison for the player in position 28 to Sugden and Eiffert and then the player in position 17 (top right)

Finally I have added an image of Tommy Madden, the Syracuse manager, who would be an option for player 17.

I agree with your re-assignment of North.

I think that the man labeled as #28 looks older than the others, and that Sugden is a better match than Eiffert. On March 25th, the Cardinals released Eiffert, Greisenbeck, Gerlach, and James, so the photo would exclude them if it had been taken during the team's last few days in Texas.

I think that the young man in street clothes on the far right, who is cut out of both copies of the photo that you've posted, could be a non-player who was a club secretary or a trainer. Do you have a copy of the group photo that includes him?

[UKBaseballfan]

Here is a full version of the team photo, I don't believe it helps much as it does not add anything to the separate post I made for position 17, though I admit it does inform us he must be around 6' in height.

Thanks for information in respect of Eiffert and Griesenbach and others in terms of their release. If neither of those 2 catchers is included in the image then it does create an issue in terms of identifying the veteran catcher in the back row.

Really in terms of validating the players it may come to getting a copy of the numeric key in order to establish the identities with complete confidence and I am sure within SABR there most be someone who knows the author of the book referred to previously.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Here is a full version of the team photo, I don't believe it helps much as it does not add anything to the separate post I made for position 17, though I admit it does inform us he must be around 6' in height.

Thanks for information in respect of Eiffert and Griesenbach and others in terms of their release. If neither of those 2 catchers is included in the image then it does create an issue in terms of identifying the veteran catcher in the back row.

Really in terms of validating the players it may come to getting a copy of the numeric key in order to establish the identities with complete confidence and I am sure within SABR there most be someone who knows the author of the book referred to previously.

I think it is possible that the man wearing a chest protector could be an umpire. I don't know when umpires started wearing the large protector that is clearly distinct from catchers' gear. (Edited to add: Nope, it's not an umpire. See post #384.)

[tnfoto]

For what it's worth, here are two photos of Joe Sugden during his tenure with the Cardinals, the first ca. 1920-21 and the second ca. 1922-24.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I think that the young man in street clothes on the far right, who is cut out of both copies of the photo that you've posted, could be a non-player who was a club secretary or a trainer. Do you have a copy of the group photo that includes him?

I've attached below two clippings from February 1921 articles that name some of the people going to Texas with the Cardinals team, including non-players. The team secretary was Clarence Lloyd and the team trainer was Kirby Samuels. (I am confident that the tall young man is not team president Sam Breadon or general manager Branch Rickey.) I cannot find images of Lloyd or Samuels. Both are named as accompanying the team south.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by tnfoto

For what it's worth, here are two photos of Joe Sugden during his tenure with the Cardinals, the first ca. 1920-21 and the second ca. 1922-24.

Thank you, one welcomes any help we can get.

Do you have any knowledge of Gary Bedingfield (author of the aforementioned book) or Scott Higginbotham the provider of a few names in respect of players shown in the image, or any ideas on avenues to pursue in terms of obtaining the list for the numbers.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by RUKen

I've attached below two clippings from February 1921 articles that name some of the people going to Texas with the Cardinals team, including non-players. The team secretary was Clarence Lloyd and the team trainer was Kirby Samuels. (I am confident that the tall young man is not team president Sam Breadon or general manager Branch Rickey.) I cannot find images of Lloyd or Samuels. Both are named as accompanying the team south.

Tommy Madden is listed at 5'11", here is a second image of him along with the first alongside the individual in position 17.

Additionally included is a comparison of position 28 alongside the Cardinals image of Joe Sugden provided by TNFOTO.

[UKBaseballfan]

Amazingly I have just discovered that the author of the book Gary Bedingfield is a British historian of baseball. He was a catcher and played for Enfield Spartans. He was a regular member of the Great Britain National Team.

Also amazingly we have other things in common as I represented Enfield in an alternate sport and also studied Business Studies at Middlesex University at their Enfield site. I will see if I can contact him apparently he now resides in Glasgow, Scotland. !!