Thread for player identification in team photos

[tnfoto]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Do you have any knowledge of Gary Bedingfield (author of the aforementioned book) or Scott Higginbotham the provider of a few names in respect of players shown in the image, or any ideas on avenues to pursue in terms of obtaining the list for the numbers.

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

Amazingly I have just discovered that the author of the book Gary Bedingfield is a British historian of baseball. He was a catcher and played for Enfield Spartans. He was a regular member of the Great Britain National Team.

Also amazingly we have other things in common as I represented Enfield in an alternate sport and also studied Business Studies at Middlesex University at their Enfield site. I will see if I can contact him apparently he now resides in Glasgow, Scotland. !!

I'm glad you have a potential connection to Bedingfield. Sadly, I do not have any connection to Bedingfield, nor Higginbotham.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by RUKen

The team secretary was Clarence Lloyd and the team trainer was Kirby Samuels...I cannot find images of Lloyd or Samuels. Both are named as accompanying the team south.

I concede that the young man in street clothes on the far right is not likely to be Kirby Samuels. I've come across a newspaper article from the 1940's that reported that former Cardinal trainer Kirby Samuels was the victim of gun violence, and that he was an African-American.

I have found only one image of Clarence Lloyd, searching from 1910 through the 1970's, and this was from a reunion of the 1926 Cardinals in the 1950s, so he had aged 30 or more years from 1921. He had been a sports writer for about a decade before becoming the Cardinals' secretary in 1919. He represented his newspaper in a billiards tournament in 1911 (as a pool player) and was described then as a "boy wonder", so he was probably in his teens or early twenties at that time. The 1950's image of Lloyd is attached below, next to the image of the young man in street clothes from the 1921 group photo, but I cannot determine whether they could be the same person. (Edited to add: They are not the same.)

[UKBaseballfan]

It appears that there were 2 Tommy Madden's. One was known as Bunny Madden. It was the latter who was the Syracuse Manager and not the Tommy Madden I initially singled out. Interestingly Bunny Madden's position was catcher and it may be him who is decked out as a Catcher in the back row as player 7.

Here are comparison images, player 7 and Madden when with the Red Sox. Additionally compared with person 17 in the photo.

Bunny Madden is listed at 5'10"

[UKBaseballfan]

Gary Bedingfield produced the goods and provided exactly what was required.

Here is the list he provided.

Yes there is an anomaly in respect of the location listed for Roswell Higginbotham. Within the published book it states that he is player 23, sixth from the left of the middle row (shown below), but in the list he is position 26, placed fourth from the right in the middle row. I am convinced that the list is correct.

[rlumpkin1@tampabay.rr.com]

This Arizona Diamondbacks Training is from June 1996. Anyone know who is who. Assuming all minor Leaguers and Draft Picks. Curious who is who.

[cinemaodyssey]

This photo has been floating around the internet for many years purporting to be the 1889 Columbus franchise in spring training. The uniform styles and newspaper descriptions prove that this pictures the 1888 team. I'd greatly like to whittle down the player ID's on this because there is a 100% chance that Pit Gilman (a missing player) is among the players pictured.

[cinemaodyssey]

Attached are a few obscure player exemplars for this roster: Jack Handiboe, Carl McVey and Jerry O'Brien

[cinemaodyssey]

One additonal exemplar is Billy O'Rourke, who managed Omaha for many years.

[UKBaseballfan]

The team image in question is published on page 379 of David Nemec's , "The Great Encyclopedia Of 19th Century Major League Baseball"

The image with the caption is attached, which identifies some of those pictured.

If the image was taken prior to the start of the 1889 campaign it would be expected that they would wear the previous year's uniform.

[cinemaodyssey]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

The team image in question is published on page 379 of David Nemec's , "The Great Encyclopedia Of 19th Century Major League Baseball"

The image with the caption is attached, which identifies some of those pictured.

If the image was taken prior to the start of the 1889 campaign it would be expected that they would wear the previous year's uniform.

It has been established that every single one of those players are misidentified in that caption. The player thought to be Dave Orr is actually Buck West.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

This photo has been floating around the internet for many years purporting to be the 1889 Columbus franchise in spring training. The uniform styles and newspaper descriptions prove that this pictures the 1888 team. I'd greatly like to whittle down the player ID's on this because there is a 100% chance that Pit Gilman (a missing player) is among the players pictured.

The photo includes 14 players plus the manager, which seems to be the number of players with the club in late April, 1888 when the season started. Those players were:
George Backer, James Curry (Player-manager), Pit Gilman, Robert Hamilton, Jack Handiboe, Jim Handiboe, Carl McVey, John Munyan, Joe Neale, Jerry O'Brien, Charles Pike, Billy Rourke, Ernest Smith, Patrick Welsh, and Buck West.

Of these, six seem to have been with the club all season: Gilman, Hamilton, both Handiboes, Munyan and Smith.

The club seems to have had no more than 14 players in September, including the manager Arnold, who took over for Curry. Pete Sommers was on the club at the end of the season, so I can see if he might be in the photo, and that could help nail the time frame.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by prewinter

The photo includes 14 players plus the manager, which seems to be the number of players with the club in late April, 1888 when the season started. Those players were:
George Backer, James Curry (Player-manager), Pit Gilman, Robert Hamilton, Jack Handiboe, Jim Handiboe, Carl McVey, John Munyan, Joe Neale, Jerry O'Brien, Charles Pike, Billy Rourke, Ernest Smith, Patrick Welsh, and Buck West.

Of these, six seem to have been with the club all season: Gilman, Hamilton, both Handiboes, Munyan and Smith.

The club seems to have had no more than 14 players in September, including the manager Arnold, who took over for Curry. Pete Sommers was on the club at the end of the season, so I can see if he might be in the photo, and that could help nail the time frame.

I had thought that the player in the back row, far left, was Fred Mann. He joined the team in late summer, after the Southern League (where he had been playing) folded. I do not have suggested IDs for any of the others.

Edited to add: I must admit that the player back row, far left, could also be Rourke or O'Brien. IDs are difficult when so many players have similar ethnic backgrounds and have similar mustaches.

Mann / Back Row Far Left / Rourke / O'Brien

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by prewinter

The photo includes 14 players plus the manager, which seems to be the number of players with the club in late April, 1888 when the season started. Those players were:
George Backer, James Curry (Player-manager), Pit Gilman, Robert Hamilton, Jack Handiboe, Jim Handiboe, Carl McVey, John Munyan, Joe Neale, Jerry O'Brien, Charles Pike, Billy Rourke, Ernest Smith, Patrick Welsh, and Buck West.

Of these, six seem to have been with the club all season: Gilman, Hamilton, both Handiboes, Munyan and Smith.

The club seems to have had no more than 14 players in September, including the manager Arnold, who took over for Curry. Pete Sommers was on the club at the end of the season, so I can see if he might be in the photo, and that could help nail the time frame.

In terms of dating the image so far we have 2 identifications, namely Buck West and Fred Mann. Buck West is listed by B-R as having been with 3 teams in 1888, Lima, Wheeling and Columbus. Do we have any knowledge on how his time was allocated between these 3 teams. Columbus appears last on that apparent chronoligical list (?).

Additionally from B-R's supposedly chronological list Carl McVey is listed as being with Mansfield and then Columbus in 1888. Fred Mann is listed as being with Charleston and then Columbus.

All the above would point to a greater likelihood that the image was from late summer.

The expectation would be that included within the image are the 6 players that were playing all season. Included in that list is Munyan, to my eye he could be a match with the player on the ground at the left. Exemplar used in that assessment attached. Possibly the 2 Handiboes are located in the middle row, adjacent to each other, Jim (Second from left) and Jack (third next to West).

Could we clarify whether the player is Billy Rourke or Billy O'Rourke. Do we have an image for Robert Hamilton or Ernest Smith? Is it not the case that the only piece of information we have to date in terms of differentiating between Gilman, Smith and Hamilton is Gilman's weight at 170? Admittedly we do know that Hamilton was a first-baseman, Gilman an outfielder and Smith something of a utility player, and there are some stereotypes in terms of matching physical appearance with baseball positions.

Craig Brown's uniform site which indicates that uniforms for this team were different depending on position may assist. All players are dressed in stripes but only 3 on a dark background, additionally West's uniform background appears to be a lighter color but non-white background. Bringing caps into play, Mann appears to be wearing a 'foreign' cap. Three other players including West are wearing striped caps on a non-white background. All the players with a uniform base of white also are wearing caps with stripes on a white background. There appears to be some variety in the darkness of the stripes on white background caps. The 2 players seated on the right of the middle row appear to have the lightest color stripes on their caps. The player third from left in the middle row, suggested as Jack Handiboe, also appears to have a somewhat lighter color stripe on his cap. If it is possible to distinguish the combination of uniform and cap for a first baseman it would go a long way to pinpointing Hamilton's placement in the image.

[cinemaodyssey]

Rourke was released at the end of May, Fred Mann and Patsy Cahill joined around 7/15, Tony Hellman signed on 7/26, Buck West was released 8/3, and George McVey joined around 8/9.
I'm still partial to the idea that it is an early season photo. I do have a subscription to the Columbus Dispatch through the Columbus Public Library but the search function is quite cumbersome. I'll keep digging.
I think Munyan is sitting front and center, holding the cat. The photo UK posted is a cut-and-paste and they lopped off part of ear to make the collage.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

Rourke was released at the end of May, Fred Mann and Patsy Cahill joined around 7/15, Tony Hellman signed on 7/26, Buck West was released 8/3, and George McVey joined around 8/9.
I'm still partial to the idea that it is an early season photo. I do have a subscription to the Columbus Dispatch through the Columbus Public Library but the search function is quite cumbersome. I'll keep digging.
I think Munyan is sitting front and center, holding the cat. The photo UK posted is a cut-and-paste and they lopped off part of ear to make the collage.

Do we have any knowledge as to when Joe Neale was with the team? B-R lists Columbus as his only team for 1888 and apparently he did not pitch that year.

2 images of him attached.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

In terms of dating the image so far we have 2 identifications, namely Buck West and Fred Mann. Buck West is listed by B-R as having been with 3 teams in 1888, Lima, Wheeling and Columbus. Do we have any knowledge on how his time was allocated between these 3 teams. Columbus appears last on that apparent chronoligical list (?).

Additionally from B-R's supposedly chronological list Carl McVey is listed as being with Mansfield and then Columbus in 1888. Fred Mann is listed as being with Charleston and then Columbus.

All the above would point to a greater likelihood that the image was from late summer.

I've got the following information on the Columbus roster, regarding dates with the club. This comes from a spreadsheet someone else put together (and I have no reason to think there are gross errors), and I haven't verified it, but here it goes.

Added first names from Baseball-Reference...

Pitkin Gilman Full season
Bob Hamilton Full season
James Handiboe (Nick) Full season
John Handiboe (Jack) Full season
John Munyan Full season
Ernest Smith Full season

James Curry (Jimmy) Start of season - 6/24 (Player manager)
Frank Arnold Manager, July - End of season

George Backer Start of season - 8/26
Carl McVey Start of season - 6/7
Joe Neale Start of season - 6/28
Jerry O'Brien Start of season - 8/26
William Rourke (Billy?) Start of season - 5/14
Charles Pike Start of season - 5/23
Patrick Welsh (Paddy) Start of season - 5/20 & 9/2 - End of season (Two stints)
Buck West Start of season - 8/19&C

Robert Childs 9/2 - End of season
Pete Sommers (also Sommrs) 8/3 - End of season
Owen Williams 9/10 - End of season

John Cahill 7/14 - 8/8
H.B. Chrisman 6/1 - 7/3
Joseph Devine 5/21/1888
Ed Dundon (Dummy) 8/23-9/2 -> The Columbus Dispatch reported Dundon released, William signed on 9/10
Tony Hellman 7/29-8/10
Gus Hoeneman 7/4-8/25
Henry Kessler
Fred Mann 7/16-9/16&C
George McVey 8/10-9/16
Dan Mulholland 6/14-7/12

Owen Williams was with Davenport in 1888, and there is a cabinet photo of him probably posted earlier in this thread. Pete Sommers had cards in Old Judge from 1888. I'll post one in a moment. Last night when I looked, it seemed like he could be the person at the far right.

[UKBaseballfan]

Originally Posted by prewinter

I've got the following information on the Columbus roster, regarding dates with the club. This comes from a spreadsheet someone else put together (and I have no reason to think there are gross errors), and I haven't verified it, but here it goes.

Gilman Full season
Hamilton. Full season
Handiboe (Nick) Full season
Handiboe Jack) Full season
Munyan Full season
Smith Full season

Curry Start of season - 6/24 (Player manager)
Arnold Manager, July - End of season

Backer Start of season - 8/26
McVey Start of season - 6/7
Neale Start of season - 6/28
O'Brien Start of season - 8/26
Rourke Start of season - 5/14
Pike. Start of season - 5/23
Welsh Start of season - 5/20 & 9/2 - End of season (Two stints)
West Start of season - 8/19&C

Childs 9/2 - End of season
Somers 8/3 - End of season
Williams 9/10 - End of season

Cahill 7/14 - 8/8
Chrisman 6/1 - 7/3
Devine 5/21/1888
Dundon 8/23-9/2
Hellman 7/29-8/10
Hoeneman 7/4-8/25
Kessler
Mann 7/16-9/16&C
McVey 8/10-9/16
Mulholland 6/14-7/12

Owen Williams was with Davenport in 1888, and there is a cabinet photo of him probably posted earlier in this thread. Pete Sommers had cards in Old Judge from 1888. I'll post one in a moment. Last night when I looked, it seemed like he could be the person at the far right.

Thanks for the substantial information, could you clarify which McVey is which as there are 2 McVey's listed on the roster and in your spreadsheet extraction.

Craig Brown's site details the uniform types and links it with individual players who were with the team at the start of the season, the information is dated from the Sporting Life edition of April 18th. It can be used as verification for some of the information you provided. There does appear to be one new name, Kelly in the extraction but only one Handiboe. I believe the manager Arnold's first name is Frank and that he apparently umpired 1 game in the American Association in 1889.

[UKBaseballfan]

SABR have a framework page for Arnold, describing him as Frank W. Arnold. They add that he was born in Columbus on October 5th 1851 and died on May 5th 1929 in Peoria County, Illinois at a place called Limestone Twp.

Columbus Metropolitan Library have an image (attached) and brief biography (attached) of Frank W. Arnold. There is no mention within the biography of baseball but .....................

[UKBaseballfan]

There is a publication in existence by Jim Mogan entitled "19th Century Columbus Baseball". It would not be unreasonable to consider that the team photo in question may at least have been considered when this book was formulated.

The bibliographic information states Daily Local Newspaper Accounts August 26 1882 to December 27, 1891.

[RUKen]

Originally Posted by UKBaseballfan

In terms of dating the image so far we have 2 identifications, namely Buck West and Fred Mann...Fred Mann is listed as being with Charleston and then Columbus.

(This) would point to a greater likelihood that the image was from late summer.

I had suggested the Mann ID, but see my amended post #392 in this thread, in which I concede that the player in the back row, far left, also resembles Rourke and O'Brien.