What if baseball went pro-rel in 1903?

niu354 · 01-23-2025, 12:48 PM

That's an ambitious project I want to pursue, and might be more than I can achieve solo. Is anyone interested in teaming up on this? Happy to take any help I can get!

Premise: Instead of the American League formally becoming equal to the National League and initiating the World Series era, the AL becomes the second tier in a full-blown promotion and relegation system that includes 5 tiers and 22 leagues modeled after the A-D method of classifying independent minor leagues at the time. All 167 teams and 22 leagues really existed in 1903 and my intent is to use the real-life player pool as much as possible (might need to supplement with some fictional players during the early seasons).

Some things that need to be done.
1) Design the pyramid structure (I've got a skeleton in place)
2) Incorporate team jerseys, caps, logos, etc.
3) Apply ballparks where they can be found.
4) Setup the leagues, teams, pro-rel, finances, draft, FA-cup style tournament, etc. in game with a standard 1903 historical save serving as the starting point. Probably just experiment, prototype, and test using OOTP 25 but construct the full version in 26.
5) Plan how the pyramid will evolve and expand in 1904+ based on the reality of when minor and major league franchises formed.
6) Create and host the quick start
7) Play a save and produce some content!
7) Create and host

Rain King · 01-23-2025, 01:12 PM

I'm not sure I have the time to get truly involved, but am happy to offer advice where I can.

The biggest thing you'll need to address/understand is that Market Size is relative to the specific league a team is in. So, you will need some sort of measure outside of OOTP that is comparing all clubs' market sizes across the pyramid and utilize that to adjust market sizes within OOTP each season based on club movement between leagues. Basically, if a club has a Market Size of 7 in League Two...they maybe should have a Market Size of 3 in League One. Any market size adjustments should be made the day before the game moves the leagues into the offseason.

mytreds · 01-23-2025, 01:25 PM

I’ve come up with this idea as well. I wouldn’t introduce the PCL and other western leagues until 1958 or so- when the mlb did expand west. Becuase before that, traveling across country took a long time. I always start the project but never finish it because one or two things I realize trigger my ocd and I never complete what I start.

niu354 · 01-23-2025, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain King

So, you will need some sort of measure outside of OOTP that is comparing all clubs' market sizes across the pyramid and utilize that to adjust market sizes within OOTP each season based on club movement between leagues. Basically, if a club has a Market Size of 7 in League Two...they maybe should have a Market Size of 3 in League One.

I appreciate the offer for advice and thanks for the heads up on market size. Want to make sure I have my head around this right. To calculate each team's finances, the game starts with the league's financials and then uses the market size as a multiplier/adjustment? If that's the case, is it also safe to say that entire issue of market size calibration between tiers wouldn't apply if each tier had the exact same finances?

Rain King · 01-23-2025, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by niu354

If that's the case, is it also safe to say that entire issue of market size calibration between tiers wouldn't apply if each tier had the exact same finances?

It depends on what you mean by having the exact same finances. Is it your intention that each league will have generally the same average salary per player?

niu354 · 01-23-2025, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain King

Is it your intention that each league will have generally the same average salary per player?

It wouldn't be ideal, but I'm keeping an open mind and contemplating this as one possibility. From the research I've done so far, finances are a big challenge with promoted and relegated teams in OOTP. I'd accept having unrealistic finances (i.e. like all tiers having equal or similar revenues, budgets, and salary ranges) as long as players and clubs both behave ambitiously. If the reserve clause makes free-agency a non-issue, the league reputation setting drives the ambition, and my custom lottery tool distributes rookie free agents realistically, then perhaps keeping finances uber simple would be best. Then things like market size calibration don't disrupt the ecosystem. It could be an awful idea due to my misunderstanding or not accounting for something else. Pick it apart...

niu354 · 01-23-2025, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mytreds

I wouldn’t introduce the PCL and other western leagues until 1958 or so- when the mlb did expand west.

Thanks, this is an interesting consideration. I definitely want the west coast leagues in the pyramid. There was lots of baseball out west, just not major league baseball. My question is how that would have played out in this open universe. I'm already regionalizing at tier 3, so perhaps clubs west of the rockies have a ceiling at that level, but can still move between tiers 3-4-5? Or maybe the Federal League becomes a second tier-2 league, and they effectively become the AL western conference?

Much to consider! Ideas welcome.

Rain King · 01-23-2025, 04:08 PM

I'm not quite seeing exactly what your vision is....but my recommendation is just to test, test, test.

FYI, the adjusting of the Market Sizes actually isn't particularly complicated as long as you have a system for it and the financials work pretty well if that is done right. But those changes are the key. Otherwise, you will have clubs ascending/descending very quickly instead of realistically.

niu354 · 01-23-2025, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rain King

I'm not quite seeing exactly what your vision is....but my recommendation is just to test, test, test.

FYI, the adjusting of the Market Sizes actually isn't particularly complicated as long as you have a system for it and the financials work pretty well if that is done right. But those changes are the key. Otherwise, you will have clubs ascending/descending very quickly instead of realistically.

I want a "normal" flow of promotion of relegation. If your experience is that setting market size relative to league makes this happen, then I'll start in that direction (and test like crazy!).

willboat75 · 01-24-2025, 11:37 AM

Similarly to others, I've thought about making something like this happen, but it always gets bogged down because I'm not patient enough to test. The recent conception I had was just to tie market size to the current population of the team's metro area (1 tick for every 500,000 people). NYC would get two teams and still get a 20 market size. Detroit would be 8-9 or so. All teams in league five would have a market size of 1. I wouldn't want to spend all that time manually adjusting, personally.

The other thing that's always given me pause about starting a save like that is OOTP's lack of detail for association tracking and things like that, and the fact that I'd have to manually assign teams to a Champion's League. I want to start a world, let it run automatically given the parameters I've set, and then jump in to play when there's some established history.

I've also thought about a hyper-regionalized pro/rel world, like in my home state of Michigan, with company teams from Detroit or other realistic stories like that, but I know that I would eventually want that level of detail across the country, which isn't feasible for me.

I guess I have to wait for Tm1861 to advance about 50 more in-game years in his Big Bang sim.

niu354 · 01-24-2025, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willboat75

I guess I have to wait for Tm1861 to advance about 50 more in-game years in his Big Bang sim.

If I get this to work, I’m going to share the quick start.

niu354 · 01-24-2025, 11:49 PM

Got some more set up today. First real stumble: the draft. For some reason, I only get 37 players in my draft pool. My cookie cutter 1903 historical league (control group) gets several hundred. The most common cause of this is moving the draft into the season. I didn’t do that. Two hypotheses/theories:
1) Moving all the American League clubs to a new fiction league messed something up
2 The Association draft messed something up.

Anybody got experience with this situation?

SunGodOctopus · 01-27-2025, 05:08 PM

A pyramid style pro-relgation won't work with ootp. Has to be a straight line.

As for the team markets, I wouldn't worry about that. When teams go up or down their budgets change for the new league they're going to. My suggestion is to just just the mass financial changer and use league reputations. Make the top tier rep 10 and use normal finances. Then next time a rep 8 and then use mass financial changer to make the totals drop 10 or 25 percent. Then tier 3 be 50 percent of normal finances and rep 6.... If you keep it all in line from the top to the bottom going down on rep and finances then the salaries and budgets work themselves out. Team markets aren't really the driving force in the finances anyway, just a cog. They're related to the budget given. And any team getting promoted or relegated has its budget changed to the new league as the manual says.

RMc · 01-27-2025, 06:50 PM

I've done historical pro/rel leagues before (like here), but I inevitably get frustrated with the fact that each separate league has its own record book, and there's no way to combine them. (Yes, you could declare the top league as the "real" major league, but then you have situations like Willie Mays getting stuck on a team that bounces around the lower leagues, as he did in one of my simulations.)

Quote:

A pyramid style pro-relegation won't work with ootp.

You can, if you want to painstakingly do the promotions and relegations by hand every year. (Not my idea of a good time, tho.)

niu354 · 01-27-2025, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunGodOctopus

A pyramid style pro-relgation won't work with ootp. Has to be a straight line.

You can with some creativity. Set each pyramid tier as an OOTP league and each league is an OOTP division within it. Set a custom schedule so the divisions never play each other. At the point when it splits from national to regional, set the promoted team counts per division.

If you care about getting awards and all-star games in every league, then you might not be 100% happy. This is 1903 where neither of those things exist anyway.

niu354 · 02-08-2025, 08:35 PM

Does anyone have recommendations for how to manage the league financial settings?
-I don't want to automatically aimport adjusted financial settings each year, because the lower leagues need to have discounted finances
-I'm not sure what the correct timing to manually update them would be
-If I don't manually update, does the inflation setting take over? If yes, what does it take effect?

Rain King · 02-09-2025, 08:36 AM

The best time to manually update finances is the day before the off-season starts. Any automated year-to-year changes (such as inflation, new media contracts, etc.) will happen when you move into that first day of the off-season.

niu354 · 02-09-2025, 08:54 AM

If inflation is on, wouldn’t that cause a double-dip?

niu354 · 03-25-2025, 07:35 AM

I’ve finished testing my OOTP 26 version of this universe and began playing the save yesterday. If all goes smoothly then I’ll have a video and quick start out around the middle of April.

Torito_Mancha · 03-25-2025, 12:43 PM

Looking forward to this!

01-23-2025, 12:48 PM	#1
niu354 Major Leagues Join Date: May 2020 Location: Antioch, IL Posts: 390	What if baseball went pro-rel in 1903? That's an ambitious project I want to pursue, and might be more than I can achieve solo. Is anyone interested in teaming up on this? Happy to take any help I can get! Premise: Instead of the American League formally becoming equal to the National League and initiating the World Series era, the AL becomes the second tier in a full-blown promotion and relegation system that includes 5 tiers and 22 leagues modeled after the A-D method of classifying independent minor leagues at the time. All 167 teams and 22 leagues really existed in 1903 and my intent is to use the real-life player pool as much as possible (might need to supplement with some fictional players during the early seasons). Some things that need to be done. 1) Design the pyramid structure (I've got a skeleton in place) 2) Incorporate team jerseys, caps, logos, etc. 3) Apply ballparks where they can be found. 4) Setup the leagues, teams, pro-rel, finances, draft, FA-cup style tournament, etc. in game with a standard 1903 historical save serving as the starting point. Probably just experiment, prototype, and test using OOTP 25 but construct the full version in 26. 5) Plan how the pyramid will evolve and expand in 1904+ based on the reality of when minor and major league franchises formed. 6) Create and host the quick start 7) Play a save and produce some content! 7) Create and host __________________ New Players Framework for learning OOTP Managing your first game Customization Downloaded ballparks Sound effects Menu layouts Saves MLB launches promotion and relegation in 1903 Deciding the worst club in MLB history Curt Flood doesn't challenge the reserve clause The Continental League launches in 1961 Precluding the curse of the bambino Expanding the MLB Postseason to 200 teams The Champions League of baseball Last edited by niu354; 01-24-2025 at 03:49 PM.

01-23-2025, 01:25 PM	#3
mytreds All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2019 Posts: 1,112	I’ve come up with this idea as well. I wouldn’t introduce the PCL and other western leagues until 1958 or so- when the mlb did expand west. Becuase before that, traveling across country took a long time. I always start the project but never finish it because one or two things I realize trigger my ocd and I never complete what I start. __________________ “Baseball isn’t statistics; it’s Joe DiMaggio rounding second.” “Once, centuries ago, it was the beloved national pastime of the Americas, Wesley. Abandoned by a society that prized fast food and faster games. Lost to impatience.” “ The term ‘WAR’ should be replaced by ‘WAG’. WAR isn’t an actual measurement; it’s just a wild-ass guess” -Bill James RIP National League 1876-2022 Floreat semper vel invita morte. I make custom ballparks.

01-24-2025, 11:49 PM	#12
niu354 Major Leagues Join Date: May 2020 Location: Antioch, IL Posts: 390	Got some more set up today. First real stumble: the draft. For some reason, I only get 37 players in my draft pool. My cookie cutter 1903 historical league (control group) gets several hundred. The most common cause of this is moving the draft into the season. I didn’t do that. Two hypotheses/theories: 1) Moving all the American League clubs to a new fiction league messed something up 2 The Association draft messed something up. Anybody got experience with this situation? __________________ New Players Framework for learning OOTP Managing your first game Customization Downloaded ballparks Sound effects Menu layouts Saves MLB launches promotion and relegation in 1903 Deciding the worst club in MLB history Curt Flood doesn't challenge the reserve clause The Continental League launches in 1961 Precluding the curse of the bambino Expanding the MLB Postseason to 200 teams The Champions League of baseball

02-08-2025, 08:35 PM	#16
niu354 Major Leagues Join Date: May 2020 Location: Antioch, IL Posts: 390	Does anyone have recommendations for how to manage the league financial settings? -I don't want to automatically aimport adjusted financial settings each year, because the lower leagues need to have discounted finances -I'm not sure what the correct timing to manually update them would be -If I don't manually update, does the inflation setting take over? If yes, what does it take effect? __________________ New Players Framework for learning OOTP Managing your first game Customization Downloaded ballparks Sound effects Menu layouts Saves MLB launches promotion and relegation in 1903 Deciding the worst club in MLB history Curt Flood doesn't challenge the reserve clause The Continental League launches in 1961 Precluding the curse of the bambino Expanding the MLB Postseason to 200 teams The Champions League of baseball

02-09-2025, 08:54 AM	#18
niu354 Major Leagues Join Date: May 2020 Location: Antioch, IL Posts: 390	If inflation is on, wouldn’t that cause a double-dip? __________________ New Players Framework for learning OOTP Managing your first game Customization Downloaded ballparks Sound effects Menu layouts Saves MLB launches promotion and relegation in 1903 Deciding the worst club in MLB history Curt Flood doesn't challenge the reserve clause The Continental League launches in 1961 Precluding the curse of the bambino Expanding the MLB Postseason to 200 teams The Champions League of baseball

01-23-2025, 01:12 PM	#2
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,047 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	I'm not sure I have the time to get truly involved, but am happy to offer advice where I can. The biggest thing you'll need to address/understand is that Market Size is relative to the specific league a team is in. So, you will need some sort of measure outside of OOTP that is comparing all clubs' market sizes across the pyramid and utilize that to adjust market sizes within OOTP each season based on club movement between leagues. Basically, if a club has a Market Size of 7 in League Two...they maybe should have a Market Size of 3 in League One. Any market size adjustments should be made the day before the game moves the leagues into the offseason.

01-23-2025, 04:08 PM	#8
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,047 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	I'm not quite seeing exactly what your vision is....but my recommendation is just to test, test, test. FYI, the adjusting of the Market Sizes actually isn't particularly complicated as long as you have a system for it and the financials work pretty well if that is done right. But those changes are the key. Otherwise, you will have clubs ascending/descending very quickly instead of realistically.

01-24-2025, 11:37 AM	#10
willboat75 Minors (Double A) Join Date: Aug 2020 Location: Detroit Posts: 176	Similarly to others, I've thought about making something like this happen, but it always gets bogged down because I'm not patient enough to test. The recent conception I had was just to tie market size to the current population of the team's metro area (1 tick for every 500,000 people). NYC would get two teams and still get a 20 market size. Detroit would be 8-9 or so. All teams in league five would have a market size of 1. I wouldn't want to spend all that time manually adjusting, personally. The other thing that's always given me pause about starting a save like that is OOTP's lack of detail for association tracking and things like that, and the fact that I'd have to manually assign teams to a Champion's League. I want to start a world, let it run automatically given the parameters I've set, and then jump in to play when there's some established history. I've also thought about a hyper-regionalized pro/rel world, like in my home state of Michigan, with company teams from Detroit or other realistic stories like that, but I know that I would eventually want that level of detail across the country, which isn't feasible for me. I guess I have to wait for Tm1861 to advance about 50 more in-game years in his Big Bang sim.

01-27-2025, 05:08 PM	#13
SunGodOctopus Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Mar 2024 Posts: 25	A pyramid style pro-relgation won't work with ootp. Has to be a straight line. As for the team markets, I wouldn't worry about that. When teams go up or down their budgets change for the new league they're going to. My suggestion is to just just the mass financial changer and use league reputations. Make the top tier rep 10 and use normal finances. Then next time a rep 8 and then use mass financial changer to make the totals drop 10 or 25 percent. Then tier 3 be 50 percent of normal finances and rep 6.... If you keep it all in line from the top to the bottom going down on rep and finances then the salaries and budgets work themselves out. Team markets aren't really the driving force in the finances anyway, just a cog. They're related to the budget given. And any team getting promoted or relegated has its budget changed to the new league as the manual says.

02-09-2025, 08:36 AM	#17
Rain King Hall Of Famer Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 3,047 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	The best time to manually update finances is the day before the off-season starts. Any automated year-to-year changes (such as inflation, new media contracts, etc.) will happen when you move into that first day of the off-season.

03-25-2025, 07:35 AM	#19
niu354 Major Leagues Join Date: May 2020 Location: Antioch, IL Posts: 390	I’ve finished testing my OOTP 26 version of this universe and began playing the save yesterday. If all goes smoothly then I’ll have a video and quick start out around the middle of April.

03-25-2025, 12:43 PM	#20
Torito_Mancha Bat Boy Join Date: Nov 2024 Posts: 7	Looking forward to this!